Looking for Shops with Camworks?

[henry_phd]

I'm trying to partner with a shop that has Camworks and willing to work with me to develop a quick easy way to prototype parts.

We receive a lot of work at my company that requires machining. In the past, I've worked with many shops but there is much wasted effort because I need to communicate what needs to be done and basically through away my CAM results.

Ultimately, I'd like to find a shop that has a large standardized toolset and a developed TechDB that we can both install. I can then draw the parts and set up the CAMworks features and how I like to machine them/tools involved.

I can then just send this file to the shop who would just post and run the job without having someone reinvent the wheel each time.

Alternatively, I'd like to work with someone savy with CNC and just send them the GCode to be run + setups or I can help train/setup a Camworks system inexchange for machining time.

Please send me a PM and we can discuss further.

[extanker59]

Wow. I'm interested to see who would risk their machines on someone else's code.
Since you, evidently, are very knowledgable in machining, you could just cut out the middleman and get your own machines?

[henry_phd]

Getting our own machines requires a place to put them and someone to operate it/clean up chips. Like making your own pcbs, some things are best farmed out.

Running the g-code blind is somewhat risky I suppose but by sending them the Camworks file, the simulation can be run and with a shared TechDB, the virtual machine shop becomes much more of a reality.

[extanker59]

I understand your hopes. Maybe someday soon it will reach that stage (it will eventually).

The problem now is that you are asking someone to risk his machines based on a simulation.
I use CamWorks and really like it. The simulation has shown me when I was cutting too much or not enough. It has saved me several times.

It does not, however, tell me when my part is being held too weakly or I'm taking too deep a depth of cut for the diameter of the tool. It does not show chatter, etc...
If you are having a person, who is not a machinist or at least an engineer experienced in machining, program in CamWorks, you may be getting a false impression of the capabilities of the Cam system (any Cam system).

But maybe you are or have that person programming. Unfortunately, everybody has different ideas of speeds, feeds, etc... and methods of work holding.
I submit that this is might be a wild goose chase.

[henry_phd]

I agree you need someone that needs to know what he is doing. I'm an engineer and an expert at it so that is not the problem here.

The depth of cut and feeds and speeds are all set in the TechDB. If you both are using the same techdb and it is set up properly, there shouldn't be that many problems. Setting up the TechDB probably isn't an easy process and I doubt most machinists can do it without help.

I encountered way too many engineers that want to be machinists and way too many machinists that want to be engineers and think it's best if everyone does what they are good at.

In CAMworks, you can set the holding avoidance boundaries and set up the features with the depths of cuts/speeds for all materials in the Feeds and Speeds library.

If the machinist doesn't like the feeds/speeds he can adjust them in the operation menu easily. Then again, he can just adjust the feed/spindle speed directly from the machine during runtime if it is also a concern.

The point is to speed up the process. I know when I designed the part that a certain radius is supposed to be cut with a specific leadin and specific end mill so rather than explaining that, I can just put it in the CAM file.

Also 99% of the time I drew up a part in hopes of just giving a solidworks file to a machinist, he always wants me to detail the drawing with all the dimensions/radius. That's not a problem when the part is a bunch of holes but if it is a several hundred splines, then it becomes a time problem. I'd much rather specify the CAM file, get the part back, laserscan into Rapidform XOS and perform the quality check automatically.

If you set it up properly, the virtual machine shop can be set up efficiently today with current tools.

[extanker59]

Rather than go into the points that I disagree with you (pointless), I will just wish you good luck (Not sarcastic).

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by henry_phd I agree you need someone that needs to know what he is doing. I'm an engineer and an expert at it so that is not the problem here. < snip > I encountered way too many engineers that want to be machinists and way too many machinists that want to be engineers and think it's best if everyone does what they are good at.

Your words, not anybody else's. Build a solid model. Do a basic 2D drawing to communicate any special inspection requirements or design aspects. Turn it over to somebody else. There is no way that I would run somebody else's code. There is no way I would suggest that somebody else run my code (even with a setup sheet). You could push that onto the vendor but by the time I spent enough time proving your code, you'd have been money ahead if we had just talked about what you wanted and I did the cutter paths for you.

You don't know what kind of workholding they have or what specific cutters they may have for particular materials or conditions. They can't have all of that loaded into a machine at all times. That won't be in the tech database.

You've bought into the Camworks marketing (I've sat through the demos and heard the promises too). That stuff is all wonderful if you work at a single company and have strict process control. I seriously doubt you're going to find an independent shop who holds that kind of process control, unless you're going to keep them regularly fed with parts (production aerospace work as an example).

My $0.02.

[henry_phd]

I used to run a machine here and with Camworks and the process was I programmed it then gave the setup sheet to my machinist, he loaded the tools and held down the part like I told him to hold it down and just ran the job. Rather than keeping the big shop, I moved to a highrise design studio and would rather just farm out the machining. Instead of giving it to the machinist that runs the machines, I would just email it to a shop and they would take care of it.

Every tool I had I put into the Camworks database which then creates tool cribs which I have loaded into the machine. I would specify cutter length, number of flutes, material (HSS, Carbide, etc). The speeds and feeds library was calibrated for every material's SCFM so it was all automated. It took a huge amount of time but eventually it worked.

I agree that it's a lot easier to make the 3d model and all tolerances and send it to someone and just get back a part a few weeks later but a lot of time I want more control.

Again the point is to have virtual machining so all the control without maintaining the machine, cleaning up/disposing the chips/filling the coolant/etc.

[Donkey Hotey]

OK, it sounds like you have a handle on all of it. You understand what it takes to load and unload a carousel full of tools. It sounds like you need somebody that is local as well, so you can discuss workholding or job setup. If you are going to do things to that level, why does the shop need to have Camworks at all?

Have you thought about talking to your CamWorks VAR? They should know who their customers are (near and far) and could probably suggest some shops. You'll obviously both need to be on current maintenance for this exchange to work.

[henry_phd]

When I was running the Haas VF4, we had ~15 standard tools always loaded such as a fly cutter, flat end mills of various sizes, ball end mills, single point tap, jacob drill chuck.

Application specific tools like keyway cutters and drill bits were loaded into the remaining 5 slots. Most shops I seen have a big 50 tool changer and really only need to pop in a specific tool once in a while.

I also had an automatic tool touch off procedure so the H tool offsets values were set automatically whenever a tool is loaded or unloaded. The coolant offset was set as percentage of the H tool offset.

The setup sheets generated by Camworks + avoid area drawing is all that is needed for workholding setup as you know where you can/cannot put the workholding.

My Camworks VAR said he didn't know any shops that did what I'm looking for - running a virtual machine shop.

[henry_phd]

Also I think having Camworks is actually makes this work.

For example, if I want to make a 1/2" pocket and use a 1/4" endmill and remove 1/32" cuts, if you change it to 1/40" cuts, there's quite a bit of work in rewriting the gcode but in Camworks you just change the properties of the operation and it regenerates everything. If the work holding area needs to be increased, that is also an easy fix and toolpaths regenerated.

Having a subset of standardized tools + Camworks to make adjustments like above is key.

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by henry_phd When I was running the Haas VF4, we had ~15 standard tools always loaded such as a fly cutter, flat end mills of various sizes, ball end mills, single point tap, jacob drill chuck.

Hmmm...that sounds very familiar.

I've got a VF-2, the first 12 tools are always left in place, pocket 20 is the probe, pocket 19 is the Jacobs chuck, 18-down are loaded with job specific tools. I keep it that way for exactly the same reasons you cited.

That library is stored in Mastercam so I can grab the standard tools and just use them. If a cutter gets changed, it gets altered in the Mastercam library so the two always match.

I have the default cutter information loaded into that Mastercam library but I still don't use the defaults every time, for every cutter.

I still don't know if I'd trust somebody to run code on my machine, even if they were as familiar with the exact machine as you are. I also think that you're a rarity. That in itself limits the possibility of such shops existing.