Camsoft Handwheel problems

[Ben Olson]

Hi folks first post here,

I purchased a Camsoft CNC lite /plus system and retrofitted it onto an OKK MCV500 vertical machining center ( using the existing Mitsubishi drives and motors )
For the most part it works OK ( yes just OK ) but not dramatically better than the two and a half decade old control it replaced ( a Meldas 5000c with a Dostek BTR ) for one thing servo stability is a big problem ( unless i edit the programs to use a G10 and G11G00 command they won't run )

I can work around all this if I have to ( and eventually I hope to not have to ) but a major problem with the functionality of this system is the handwheel

if I use the handwheel function to touch off on a part or to indicate an edge and then try to run a program the program will start but the spindle will not ( note that jogging the axes around does not cause this problem )

the only way I have found to fix this problem is to shutdown and re start the control which at least to me is a major PITA
does anybody out there know what's up?
logic problem?
I looked through all the literature that was sent with the software and hardware and came up with nothing
thanks in advance, Ben

[Al_The_Man]

Ben, maybe if you post your code you are using for the spindle start we may be able to help. I assume you have an S value and an M3 or M4?
Incidentally what Mitsubishi servo drives and motors are you using?
Have you tried emailing Ruben Ordonez at Camsoft, he may be able to help.
Al

[HuFlungDung]

Ben,

When I look at the list of features of the CNC Plus versus, CNC professional, quite frankly, I think you should upgrade to Professional, asap.

The critical features, I believe that a serious user will want are these:
G&M codes user definable
Smartpath option
Fastmode
Dynamic look ahead

There are others, as well.

The first one I listed, G&M codes user definable is quite critical, I believe. Without direct access to the logic that executes when M or G codes are executed, I believe you will find yourself extremely handicapped to tweak performance of your machine, and make it do what you want it to do. I speak from experience.

The real reason to upgrade to a Camsoft cnc, in my opinion, is so that you can run short segment 3d code smoothly. Some of those other features I listed above are well worth having, in order to accomplish this.

[agentsmith]

Ben

Sounds like handwheel logic problems. Take a look in the inputio.fil file. Also run a log file. Try to trace the logic. I bet that that particular operation or feature you select modifes some rapidspeed settings or turns something off that does not get reset back. Send your cbk file and a logfile and as much detail as you can into camsoft tech support. I bet you they can help.

Smith

[Al_The_Man]

Originally posted by HuFlungDung
Ben,

G&M codes user definable

There are others, as well.

The first one I listed, G&M codes user definable is quite critical, I believe. Without direct access to the logic that executes when M or G codes are executed, I believe you will find yourself extremely handicapped to tweak performance of your machine, and make it do what you want it to do. I speak from experience.

Hu, I am not sure I completely agree as far as 'Tweaking' G codes. My philosophy is that the system software provider supply working standard G codes that operate perfectly with the system it is written for, whether this be a aimed at a OEM hardware, dedicated motion control card (Galil) or purely Windows software based system.
G codes are written for the motion control part of the CNC and as such should perform exactly as they are defined in the EIA standard RS-274D. If not then the software provider is amiss in not suppling the right code. In other words these should not be machine specific.
M codes on the other hand are machine specific and require the machine tool builder to custom them as required.
If I am building/retro-fitting a machine, the last thing I want to do is to have to 'tweak' G codes.
If I am paying top dollar for CNC software, I would expect that at least the 'Standard' part of the system perform without intervention.
Just venting my 2cents worth.
Al

[HuFlungDung]

Here is a sample of what I am talking about, Al. There is tons of stuff you can add to make your machine safer to operate, or simply more foolproof.

The real "guts" of the G codes are actually quite simple, as you indicate, because the basic motion controller commands are quite simple.

When you have full control, you can experiment, too. Try the G0 without a DECELSTOP and see what happens. Etc., etc.

There was no way I could have done my lathe retrofit with CNCLite. It would be one thing if they told you what logic they were using in the CNC Lite Gcodes, but it is invisible.

Here is a sample I cut from my own cbk. I'm not going to explain it, but you can probably decipher some of what I was up to

~@~GCODE.FIL
DISPLAY1 t :TEXT 1;t :\81=t
IF\99=0THENIF{\3+\4}=0THENIF\5=1THENLABEL2 YOU FORGOT TO PROGRAM SPINDLE FWD/REV :[CYCLEBUTT] :EXIT
LABEL2 ;11
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THENLABEL2 SPINDLE IS STOPPED;12 'detect a stopped spindle by M5 flag
DECELSTOP
RAPID z;{x/2};0
IF\99=1THENIFt<>\408THEN\408=t :FILEWRITE (T\408) :READNOTE \409 :FILEWRITE (\409) :FILEWRITE M0
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THEN [CYCLEBUTT] 'if a dryrun is not in progress then if an M5 was not cancelled my an M3 or M4 ,go to the macro
\100=z
\101=x
-----G0
IF f=0THENLABEL2 YOU FORGOT TO SPECIFY A FEEDRATE;12 :[CYCLEBUTT] :EXIT
LABEL2 ;11
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THENLABEL2 SPINDLE IS STOPPED;12 'detect a stopped spindle by M5 flag
GO z;{x/2};0
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THEN [CYCLEBUTT] 'allows the program to run through with axis locked M31
\100=z
\101=x
-----G1
IF f=0THENLABEL2 YOU FORGOT TO SPECIFY A FEEDRATE;12 :[CYCLEBUTT] :EXIT
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THENLABEL2 SPINDLE IS STOPPED;12'detect a stopped spindle by M5 flag
'CW z;{x/2};0;k;i;0 'this is for I,K arc centers
CW z;{x/2};;r
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THEN [CYCLEBUTT]
\100=z
\101=x
-----G2
IF f=0THENLABEL2 YOU FORGOT TO SPECIFY A FEEDRATE;12 :[CYCLEBUTT] :EXIT
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THENLABEL2 SPINDLE IS STOPPED;12 'detect a stopped spindle by M5 flag
'CCW z;{x/2};0;k;i;0 'this is for I,K arc centers
CCW z;{x/2};;r
IF\99=0THENIF\5=1THEN [CYCLEBUTT]
\100=z
\101=x
-----G3

[Ben Olson]

Al, the drives are mitsubishi ( Zofuku ) with THA3SB top boards , the motors are big 1.5 Kw permanent magnet DC servo ( 8 brushes ) ballscrews are 10mm pitch and 40mm in dia

I am using the regular codes for spindle start ( ie : S2000 M03.... )

I have already sent my CBK to Rueben ...... no luck so far

I was wondering if any of you guys are using the camsoft pendant without problems? I mean does this stuff actually work or is it just B.S.?

the reason we went with the CNC plus version of the software is because we don't really need high speed look ahead and all the fancy geegaws ( lets face it this beast is far from high speed at 400 IPM max rapids on box ways ) all I really need is good, basic, reliable performance with no surprises when I hit cyclestart........ right now I don't trust this thing ( like playing russian roulette with CAT50 taper tooling )

as far as the tool changer goes none of that stuff has even been attempted yet ( but I do have the opto board bristling with relays )

I also agree with Al on the subject of user definable G code..... leave the standard stuff standard I don't really want to have to mess with this stuff just to make parts on my machine

Ilook at this like a car thats so loaded up with options that they forgot it needs an engine to move, it's great to sit in, but it sucks to drive...... I don't really care if I can choose what bitmap image of a virtual stop button I like as long as when it 's pressed things actually stop.

[HillBilly]

Ben,

You hit the nail on the head with the car comparision.
I have always complained about the pendant response in diagnostics mode!

I did a total of six of these CamSoft installations.

Looks like excellent code Hu, would like to see the [CYCLEBUTT] macro.
Just out of curiosity would you make any commission if Ben upgraded to CNC Pro.

HillBilly

[HuFlungDung]

Hillbilly,

No, I would not make a commission from any sales upgrades, although I guess I could hope

The standard keyboard jog mode sucks, and I've complained but to no effect. There is no reason why keyboard jog could not be a very workable system, but once again, because the logic is buried internally in the executable, it cannot be modified, and therefore, IMO, it cannot be fixed.

This is exactly the reason why the standard Gcode and Mcode logic with CNC Lite is practically useless. This is, IMO, why you guys might feel that your machine is not safe to run. I guarantee you, it most definitely is not safe to run with the standard cbk. The logic is too stripped down to be safe. I was shocked that this was the case, with the standard cbks sent out with the program.

The argument was, that Camsoft could not release "real cbks", because they might infringe on other retrofitter's efforts. I suppose this is a conceivable argument, but still, there is no real forum (except this one) where users can get together and discuss and share ideas, from whatever they have individually developed. Thus, each user spends many hours reinventing the wheel, so to speak. CAmsoft tech support makes a living from support, so why should they give up a good thing?

Although one of the "advantages" of the Camsoft interface, is that "you don't need ladder logic", that could lead one (especially a novice) to assume that ladder logic is not important. That is total BS, of course. There are hundreds of safety concerns that commercial cnc controllers take care of "automatically", which the novice retrofitter might overlook. But, when you have to rewrite and invent the logic yourself, you do gain a new appreciation for what the commercial cnc's take care of. That is why "plc ladders" look like a nightmare to learn. They are! But the logic is just as necessary in a pc based cnc controller.

Do you think I still qualify for a "cut" if you guys upgrade?

I am willing to share my lathe cbk with anyone who wants to see it. If you want me to "tech support" it, then I will charge you a price for the support.

I would also like to see what other people have done in their cbks, both mill and lathe. If anyone wants to "trade" the cbk file, I'm game for it.

BTW, I do feel very safe running this machine. In fact it beats anything else that I have ever had, but only because I took the time to make it so. Interlocked logic throughout the Mcode and Gcode files are the keys to success. You just cannot get this with CNC Lite.

Here is my [CYCLEBUTT] macro It is basically just a quick way to reset various things in the GUI, as there are many "safety issues" that call for the same logic over and over, so this macro was the simple way to get this one function without cluttering up my cbk with duplicate logic.

Variable 104 and 30 are flags to help me keep track of SINGLESTEP mode or CYCLESTART mode. It really does not make much sense without thoroughly delving into the complete logic system I have built (and even then, I sometimes wonder )

~@~MACRO.FIL
[[CYCLEBUTT]]
IF\104=0THENIF\30=1 THEN CYCLESTART :GOTO :ABORTPROG
IF\104=1THENIF\30=1 THEN GOTO :ABORTPROG
IF\104=1THEN GOTO :ENDLOOP
CYCLESTART
:ENDLOOP
BUTTON5 IN; F5 SINGLE STEP MODE ACTIVE;2
BUTTON6 OUT; PRESS F6 FOR CONTINUOUS MODE;12
BUTTON1 IN; ABORT JOB?;2 :SLEEP .5:BUTTON1 OUT; ABORT JOB?;4 :SLEEP .5 :BUTTON1 IN; ABORT JOB?;2 :SLEEP .5 :BUTTON1 OUT; F1 ABORT JOB;2
EXIT
:ABORTPROG
BUTTON5 IN; F5 SINGLE STEP MODE ACTIVE;2
BUTTON6 OUT; PRESS F6 FOR CONTINUOUS MODE;12
\30=0 :REFRESH :EOP

[Ben Olson]

Hu .... well I guess I qualify as a novice retrofitter.... this is the first CNC retrofit I have ever attempted ( nothing like starting out on a 40" x 20" x 22" 50 taper VMC Eh?....... ) I am just using the HH lite .cbk file and you're right about the not safe part...what was the secret password again....... Hmmm RISK?

the only reason I purchased the Camsoft system was we were told that the system had been installed on a OKK machine before and that it would work with our existing motors and drives

with the old control the servo's were rock solid and accurate to four decimal places ( old fashioned tacho/gen and resolvers )

with the new control the servo's are willing to trip at any moment and lose position badly ( running in velocity mode with 2000 ppr OMRON encoders and tacho/gen's for the drives )

I even had the servo's tuned by a Mitsubishi factory trained technician who is also an electrical engineer
( and no these drives don't have a "torque mode " to switch to , sad but true )

when i bought this system I was not really informed about the level of "tweaking' I was going to have to do as far as logic and programming, oh well nothing like learning the hard ( and expensive ) way....

[IJ.]

Hu: This is one of those times when an explanation for an acronym would come in handy !

"CBK" (remembering my newbieness)

[Al_The_Man]

IJ, .CBK is just a file type extension that Camsoft use to store all the machine parameters & configuration that the machine tool retrofitter has them stored in for his particular machine.
Al