To buy or not

[pstockley]

I am in the planning stages of converting a Hardinge TFB to CNC mainly for hobby use (model engineering). I can't make my mind up to go either the Mach + Rutex + DC servo route or a higher end solution. While it is for hobby use, I want to do some serious work with it and not just do the conversion as an experiment. I have the following requirements:

1/ Two Axis DC Servos
2/ Limit switches on Z and X
3/ Spindle safety interlock
4/ Coolant pump control
5/ Spindle speed control connection to a Hitachi VFD
6/ Optical sensor for spindle speed control
7/ EStop that disables spindle and drives without software intervention
8/ DC servo and air solenoid control for home built tool changer
9/ Interface to pendant with MPG handwheel controls

Would Cam soft be a better alternative to a Mach system?

I don't really want to spend more than $5000. I have a PC and touch screen already. I have read that you really need the professional version of Camsoft otherwise you cannot customize its behaviour very much. Is this true? Also does Camsoft have any type of conversational interface for lathes?

[Karl_T]

Comparing Mach to Camsoft is like comparing a pea shooter to a nuclear weapon. I played with Mach for a few days, I think it would be nice for small hobby machines without tool changers or tool turrets and almost no I/O. I don't know if Mach can handle a gang tool type lathe or not. If you're after a hobby system, there may be some way to interface a small PLC to Mach.

Camsoft has all the capabilty you're requesting and more. I'm a Pro level user but I don't see anything in your list that can't be handled by the plus level package. I'd confirm this with the nice helpful folks at Camsoft.

Unless you score a deal on used hardware, you'll not be able to buy all the parts and software for $5K. If this is a solid limit, you'd best lower your sights.

I'm in the process of retrofitting a Hardinge CHNC. If you're wanting a tool turret and a professional machine, I'd suggest this machine is a better starting point. These units can be found with the old Allan Bradley control for peanuts. Then you already have the tool turret, brushed DC servo motors with ball screws on the X and Z axis, and all your limit switches and encoders.

Karl

[shysam]

Mr. pstockley

The differances are many between the 2 systems. I have checked into it. The CamSoft is more for serious maching, much like Allen Bradley and Seimens are were Mach systems are more for hobby shops. You really can't compare the two in quality and also I just prefer to having tech people to call. You have to ask your self how important this machine is to you and what your application is. I see from your list that the type of system you already have is nice and worthy of a nice controller. Some items like the spindle VFD is handled by Camsoft but I don't know if it is handled by Mach systems because it requires a analog voltage rather than PWM or pulses. I know the Camsoft system does allow for a Touch Screen already as a standard settings. Don't worry about the having to have the Camsoft Professional version for customizing the things you mentioned. Even the Lite and Plus has all the same operator interface customizing features plus pre writen logic for many lathes. I don't know what they have for your machine. You should ask them. $5,000 would be plenty for a nice high end DSP motion card, I/O and connections to all the items you listed even if you used the CNC Plus version. CNC Lite would do what you listed I think but ask to be sure plus that would save you thousands if it could.

ss

[HuFlungDung]

If you are serious about a fully functional lathe using Camsoft, including multipass threading with typical lathe threading tools (not taps or dies), there is a bit of work to be done to make it work right. I know because I did a lot of research to make mine thread correctly. I've never heard of anyone else who came up with any other method than running the threading program directly out of Galil memory in order to make the system respond accurately to the spindle encoder signal. There is just plain not enough speed to the windows interface to hand the sync signal off reliably to initiate the GO command for threading. I saw as much as 50% variation in the start interval using VIRTINDEX. Guess what happens on the finish pass if your thread tool starts moving 50% late

In order to run this threading subroutine off the Galil memory, you need CNC professional because otherwise, I doubt that you can execute the necessary logic to get the Camsoft gui to talk to the Galil, well actually, to stop talking to the Galil because your I/O has to be suspended in Camsoft, while the Galil does its thing. This would be because you still need a measure of machine control in case of an emergency or feedhold condition when threading, so the Galil Inputs have to be used for some of these machine control functions, and I/O cannot be shared simultaneously between Camsoft and the Galil.

However, if your spindle motor is a servo motor, you might be able to thread with electronic cam or something. I've never seen a cnc lathe yet that threaded by stopping and reversing the spindle in order to maintain the tracking. There is just too much momentum to dump in an instant.

[pstockley]

Thanks for the feedback. I will contact Camsoft and see what kind of system they recommend. I know the TFB isn't the best starting point but I got it really cheap and I don't have space for a bigger machine. Plus having the option of a tailstock means its more flexible for the potential jobs I will be using for. Part of the fun for me is also doing the conversion myself. It is a hobby but I want a machine that I will not outgrow in 5 to 10 years. I don't have any kind of time constraints as this thing doesn't have to make money.

[pstockley]

Hu, yes I need multipass threading. This is one of the reasons I was shying away from the cheaper solutions because none of them could guarantee 100% synchronization. It seems a bit lame that camsoft offer threading in the lower version but it is compromized. A servo spindle really isn't an option for me.

Anyway I will quiz them on this. Just to clarify when you say Galil, is this the motion control board processor?

[HuFlungDung]

Yes, the Galil is one of the motion control boards that Camsoft uses. They may support other brands as well.

If it will do you any good, I will send you my cbk file for lathe so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel, however, it might also be good if you found a better way to make threading work, or maybe Camsoft has found a better way by now. I had a difficult time explaining to them what the problem was, and because such a timing issue is impossible to see on a simulator, I don't know how else to experiment except to do the testing on a real lathe.

I also chatted directly with tech support at Galil. The real problem that still exists as far as I am concerned, is that the Galil card does not have a good method of detecting the marker pulse from the spindle encoder. It takes quite a while before it 'sees' it, and this amounts to a pause as much as 5 seconds long waiting to trap the signal.

Maybe it is the slow I/O on the Galil card, which is what I used, but I cannot imagine an external, fast I/O working any more reliably through Windows.

It was not a case of the response having to be lightning fast, but it had to have exactly the same delay each and every time the marker pulse was received. One of the Galil functions operates reliably in this manner.

[Bloy2004]

Just so you don't rule out Mach3 and upcoming MachIV(used with the external pulser Gecko G100), I've got a few pics of the threading I've done with mach3.
There are many professionals using Mach now and because the cost is kept low, that frees up a lot of funds for other parts for your machine.

[HuFlungDung]

BTW, don't let my report sour you guys on Camsoft, if you can hammer out a performance guarantee for the lathe threading function before you buy, then do so.

[ger21]

Originally Posted by Karl_T Comparing Mach to Camsoft is like comparing a pea shooter to a nuclear weapon.

Which is which?

Mach can do everything you're looking for, but will require som e additional hardware, and possibly a steep learning curve, as well as some VB programming skills. But it's fast becoming far more than a hobby control.


Additional inputs and outputs for the tool changer can be had by using the Mod IO board here, http://www.homanndesigns.com/ModIO.html or Automation directs PLC's, http://web4.automationdirect.com/adc...c_06/PLC_Units

The Modbus support allows a wide range of products to be used with Mach3.

For the spindle, you'd need step/direction to 0-10V board. You can get them from Rutex or www.cambelldesign.com

The other stuff is pretty basic Mach3.

[HillBilly]

Originally Posted by HillBilly We should hope the more expensive one is the best. Maybe the less expensive option can get you making parts with less cash up front to help finance the more expensive option. If you did change over later you could pass this system on to another machine in your shop also. Heaven forbid if you take the less expensive route and find out it meets your needs just fine as some of us have. We are talking a big price difference. The more expensive option is alot of money to put in a old machine. In most cases you could not easily sell the machine for what you have in the retrofit. HillBilly

This was my reply to a similar question.

Darek

[Mr Piston]

I felt I just had to write because your situation was just like mine.
Everything is the same except the brand name of the lathe right down to hand wheel.
I have my machine in my garage but it’s more than a hobby to me. I have it set up now with Cam soft and it really is a small business for me.

I bought Mach II first because people on the internet said it had all the features I needed. Same as you listed exactly, but after 3 months of trying suggestions that people gave me to get it to work I still couldn’t get it to work the way I was used to from working in a shop on real CNC.

I want to say I think I have made this experiment already and like I tell my customers, you race to win. Once you get out there and you win you are bitten with the bug and are not satisfied with losing. The parts and tools you choose make a difference with winning or losing.

The first thing I noticed was that I had to replace my original large amps with small playing card size drives and even though I continued to replace them I new this wasn’t right. In the back of my mind I knew. Step and direction drives are not anything like using the 10 volt servo signals my drives originally used. Then as time went on all the bad advice I got from the internet on how to make my lathe have normal cnc features started to become filled with many exceptions that I had to live with, which I knew wasn’t ever going to work like a regular CNC Lathe I was used to. The spindle never worked at the right rpm with encoder feedback to monitor the rpm. The hand wheel was really poor and jumpy. The faster I cut the worst it performed. I was told it was closed loop servos but that wasn’t true. Other things too. Every thing was a compromise that was telling me that I made a mistake.

I decided to try out Cam soft and right from the beginning I felt better. I did ask for them to send some one in to hook up my original servo amps because I did not have any original wiring charts. After a few days it was all working good. I was so happy. At least I knew I could call and speak to a tech if I needed and they made a service call which neither of these were options with Mach systems.

For just about $5000 you should see what I got. In the begining I didn't use a dealer so I got a discount from Cam soft for buying direct. You need to ask for this. The quality in the hardware each system used was night and day. Cam soft was the best decision I made and I should of done this earlier. The whole thing is like I wanted in the first place. Thumbs up all the way.

Take a look at what I got then you decide for yourself.

www.cnccontrols.com/touchscreen5.asp
www.cnccontrols.com/motionboards.asp
www.cnccontrols.com/cnclite.asp

The Piston Man