Newbie- Considering CAMsoft retrofit on all machines

[JohnnyDon]

We are considering replacing all controls on our machines with PC based controls.

CAMsoft seems to be the way we're going to go. Obviously They sell themselves as the "Best" and have a canned answer for all of our questions so far. What I would like if for those of you who work with the controls first hand to give me an idea of what we're getting into.

If you don't like CAMsoft, please let me know why.

If you love them and don't know how you lived without this control and why you put up with say... FANUC (our current controls) for so long please let me know that too.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Bob Pierre]

Camsoft is one of those companies that has been around a long time and knows the CNC business well. They do seem to have an answer for everything.

I decided to reply because you asked about Fanuc. We love Camsoft because they set us free of Fanuc. The tech people at Camsoft are much better and easier to work with than Fanuc and Camsoft pricing is far better. The parts are available from off the shelf sources so you don't have to worry about buying only Fanuc parts or drives. I can't say a hate Fanuc but sometimes I am so glad we use Camsoft so we know why you would ask. Free at last.

Bob

[Al_The_Man]

The question I would ask is do you intend to do the retrofits yourselves? If so, have you had any experience in this area or other machine control?
Is it Fanuc you are thinking of replacing, if so what vintage of machines?
Al.

[Karl_T]

If you're considering Camsoft, spend some time reading all the posts in this (Camsoft) forum. An evening's reading should answer a lot of questions you didn't know you had. Your exact question has been asked before with a ton of responses.

Karl

[JohnnyDon]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Man The question I would ask is do you intend to do the retrofits yourselves?

Yes, we are going to give it a shot first anyway.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Man If so, have you had any experience in this area or other machine control?

No sir.

Originally Posted by Al_The_Man Is it Fanuc you are thinking of replacing, if so what vintage of machines? Al.

Yes, All Fanuc. Series' 16-T, 18-T, O, 18-MC, 16-MB

[JohnnyDon]

Originally Posted by Bob Pierre Camsoft is one of those companies that has been around a long time and knows the CNC business well. They do seem to have an answer for everything. I decided to reply because you asked about Fanuc. We love Camsoft because they set us free of Fanuc. The tech people at Camsoft are much better and easier to work with than Fanuc and Camsoft pricing is far better. The parts are available from off the shelf sources so you don't have to worry about buying only Fanuc parts or drives. I can't say a hate Fanuc but sometimes I am so glad we use Camsoft so we know why you would ask. Free at last. Bob

That's exactly the kind of stuff we're needing to know, Thanks Bob! When you mention "off the shelf sources" what type of parts are you referring to?

[Bob Pierre]

Thank you JohnnyDon

Just about every part. You can get boards, motors, amps, relays, pendants, monitors, even use store bought PC's from off the self sources that Camsoft list. No more expensive proprietary Fanuc parts to buy.

Signing off got to take care of flood.

Bob

[Al_The_Man]

The only down side with Fanuc is if you have to replace the drives and motors it can get expensive, most machines with a Fanuc control are not small machines, so the motors are pretty good size, usually.
There is also the spindle to think of, and typically CNC spindles have a bit more to them than the cheaper VFD and standard AC induction motor.
Not only are CNC spindle motors generally capable of higher rpm than the average off the shelf version, they have the feedback pulse generator back to the drive.
Fanuc make so many variations of drives and AC servo motors it is impossible to keep track.
But motors are motors, and if you have the Fanuc AC servo's there is two possibilities in order to use them if the drives cannot be integrated.
One is a method I have used and involves replacing the proprietary encoder with an 8 pole BLDC encoder, or the other is a member here, Jon Melson has developed a converter for the standard AC motor encoder commutation pulses.
The Fanuc AC motors are nice motors so it is a shame if you cannot use them.
The only quarrel I have with PC based systems is when Windows is used to run the operator interface, with the Galil card doing most of the work, it can be done with a much less bloated code base if only there were people around that could do it.
Be prepared for a long integration time on your first one so I would pick a machine that you do not depend heavily on for production.
Al.

[Karl_T]

Originally Posted by JohnnyDon Yes, we are going to give it a shot first anyway. No sir. Yes, All Fanuc. Series' 16-T, 18-T, O, 18-MC, 16-MB

I would caution you here. A large machine refit to Camsoft is not a beginner's project. I had refit one machine to AHHA and another to Mach before buying a large Mazak M4 lathe to refit to Camsoft. I also had 18 years experience as a manufacturing engineer doing all sorts of machine control work. I was in over my head. In my case, I backed up and refit a simple knee mill to Camsoft then went back to that Mazak. I've sence done three other machines and helped on a few more.

If I were you , I'd hire help right away. or take on a smaller project.

Camsoft is a wonderful very capable control. The quality of the final machine is a direct result of the quality of the refit work.

Karl

[ontheroad]

I have learned a lot and owe these guys a favor or two. They took care of me. My sons know more about fanuc than I do but I do know that they prefer camsoft over fanuc. They said to me they can make the system do what they want to do. Maybe not at first because I went from cursing them to loving them. The first set of files they gave us for our machine didn't do what we wanted to at first. My sons figured out how to set up camsoft and now they have it just the way they want it.

John

[Lohmeyer]

I have a Camsoft converted knee mill (with Camsoft Professional). I bought it used, professionally installed, but not quite working the way I wanted (the user interface still needs some improvements). This isn't Camsoft's fault. It's because the machine was sold to me used before the professional installer finished programming the interface. I have no problem diving in to learn Camsoft, and even prefer the ability to make my system work exactly how I want vs. closed controllers like Fanuc. I do this kind of thing for a living (programmable systems, software and hardware design). I knew Camsoft could do just about anything I needed. I just needed to learn how to program it. So I dove in.

I was surprised on two fronts. One, the Camsoft documentation is woefully inadequate, or difficult to find what I needed to know, and two, the programming user interface is actually quite archaic. I was a bit shocked for a $5000 software package that purports to make my life simple, yet it was anything but. Well, compared to custom software written in C, and PLC programming, yes Camsoft is simpler. But, there is much that could be improved, and which I believe Camsoft has not improved for quite some time. They keep up on certain things well (the guts of Camsoft), but the user interface, programming tools, and documentation (especially the online docs user interface) are right out of the '90's, and I'm sorry to say, painful to use.

I plan to do a few other machine conversions. When I choose the product to do those conversions, I am investing both money and _time_ into that product. If I'm going to go through the learning curve to use a product, I only want to do it once. That means I need to feel comfortable that product will be around for years to come and keep up with the times. Looking at the rate of development, improvements to the interface, and documentation for Camsoft, I do not feel comfortable that Camsoft is viable for the long term. There are lots of hungry developers making new products that will eventually replace Camsoft, and even if they aren't comparable now (Mach), they will be soon. Plus, Mach is _significantly_ cheaper, has a large support community, and does not require a yearly maintenance contract.

Mach isn't comparable to Camsoft yet, but for much of what I care about, it's close. For a basic 3-axis conversion, Mach will do the job. The only reason I'm not wholly converting to Mach yet is because I already have a recent (2009) version of Camsoft Pro. I've got it, so I might as well give it a chance. I'm even happy to pay the $1300 to re-up my service contract when I'm ready to start the bulk of the upgrades (probably this summer). But before I'm going to blow that kind of money and spend the next year learning how to use Camsoft, I want to know I'm not investing my time in a has been product. When I talked to Camsoft about this, all I got was kick back. They do not seem interested in making improvements or listening to recommendations, and I see the day coming where Mach is going to put Camsoft out of business. I cannot afford (at any price) to use a product that is not willing to keep up with the times.

Camsoft reads this forum, so I'm sure they'll correct me on much of this. I'm all ears guys.

I contacted Camsoft with several basic questions to understand what I was getting into and what it would take to make Camsoft do it, and they practically wouldn't give me the time of day. I got better information about Camsoft from Galil than I got from Camsoft (much to the shagrin of Galil - apparently they get that a lot). I have since bought the hardware I need to upgrade my system thanks to Galil (and no thanks to Camsoft), but I made sure all of what I bought works with Mach. I think Camsoft's attitude was I was trying to ask questions that they only answer under service contract, and perhaps they didn't believe that I was willing to drop them the $1300 to re-up my contract. That was a mistake. My questions were budgetary and critical toward understanding what I had and what I needed _before_ I wasted my time and money on a service contract. I was ready to drop the money, but now I'm seriously studying Mach to see what it takes to make it do what I want.

In Camsoft's defence, maybe I just rubbed them the wrong way. I had a lot of questions because I hadn't had the benefit of being "sold" Camsoft from the beginning. I was polite, but specific. Ultimately, I was a potential customer, ready and willing to spend money on their products, and I walked away with a sour taste in my mouth. That's my experience, not everyone's, and it sounds like Camsoft has answered your questions better than they did mine.

So, long story longer... Camsoft should do what you need. But, if all you are doing is converting a basic 3 axis machine, you should definitely look at Mach. Or, if not Mach, check out some of the many Mach based canned solutions being offered by other companies. You may find it much cheaper now and later, and much easier to install if you go with one of the canned solutions. If, however, you are like me and want to have 100% control over how your machine works, then be prepared for a steep learning curve (for Mach or Camsoft), and if you go with Camsoft, be ready to pay for the service contract because you'll need it if you plan to continue development on your machines. Support-wise, it's a difference of whether you need professional hand holding (Camsoft) vs. an open community of users (Mach). Or, again, try the Mach based canned solutions which come from professional companies willing to provide the support you need.

[Karl_T]

Originally Posted by Lohmeyer I have a Camsoft converted knee mill (with Camsoft Professional). I bought it used, professionally installed, but not quite working ...

I see some of your points concerning "the wrapper" on Camsoft. The wrapper on Mach and others look better.

But when it comes to the guts, others aren't even close. Camsoft is a mature product with a lot of life left in it, much like all other good machine control products. There is no need for a significant product rework. I am certain that Camsoft will continue to be a viable control for a great many years.

I guess its too bad that becoming proficient at Camsoft isn't easy. But, as someone else said, just because learning to fly a 747 isn't easy doesn't mean its a bad airplane.

Karl