Any real world experience with Camsoft & Steppers


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    Default Any real world experience with Camsoft & Steppers

    Is there anyone who has actually done a retrofit using Camsoft with steppers? I have a Series II Bridgeport that I have been struggling with for a year.


    Thanks in advance

    Similar Threads:
    Thanks
    Marc


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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Marc, What are the issues you are having a problem with? Detail some specifics, some of us may be able to help.
    Al

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Hello Marc,

    Where are you in the country? I may be able to help you. I have helped my customer set up a stepper machine before. It's much different than the servos I have used with CamSoft. It turned out okay and almost have to say it was easier.

    Bridgeports should be nothing special with CamSoft. They showed me a Bridgeport clone running. The man told me it runs much better now with the PC control. I am not sure I can help but I will try.

    Bob



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    I sure appreciate the responses.

    Bob, we are just north of Ft Lauderdale FL. Sure, there is no reason that just because it’s a Bridgeport there should be any problem.

    I had the machine running OK, although there were some unresolved issues that I had put aside till later. I won’t go into the reasons just now, but I replaced the 3 stepper boards with new drives. The new drives are losing steps (well I assume they are losing steps, the machine is losing position). Here is what I know:

    Opto isolated inputs, require 5 v @ 7ma
    The Gallil motion card supplies 5V , up to 30ma

    The manufacturer of the drives has been very helpful, but we can’t find the problem.

    A scope confirms that there is a pretty clean 5v square wave from the card. We are talking feed rates of 1 IPM are a problem, so it’s not speed related.

    Separate issue, now that I have a scope on it I see there is a problem with the implementation of ramp up/down on the step pulses while using the handwheel for incremental jogging.

    The second issue is minor, as we are dead in the water because of the first.

    Thanks
    Marc


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    Member HuFlungDung's Avatar
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    Hi Marc,

    So you know you can redefine the acc/dec ramps whenever you need to, right? That is to say, you're not permanently stuck with the settings that you made in the setup page. Although I haven't played with any handwheel logic yet, I can imagine that there would be a special balance to be achieved, if you don't use decelstop in the handwheel logic. I'm not saying that you'd want to use it except when you exit handwheel mode, but in the same vein, more conservative (or more aggressive) acc/dec settings might be required (with or without DECELSTOP) whle in handwheel mode, just to prevent drive faults. In a servo system, you might get drive faults, in a stepper system without feedback, I suppose you'd just lose steps.

    Last edited by HuFlungDung; 06-18-2004 at 01:06 AM.
    First you get good, then you get fast. Then grouchiness sets in.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Hi Hu,

    Ok, here is what I know about the handwheel, and steppers in general.

    Am I correct when I say that all start/finish of movement on a stepper requires a ramp up/down of the pulse train to avoid losing steps, unless a very low speed is involved

    If OK2STOP is enabled, accell/decell is applied at the beginning and end of the travel. But the motor decels as soon as you stop turning the handwheel, so you cannot jog a specific distance

    Without OK2STOP each clcik represents a certain movement

    Here is the problem, the acell is only applied to the first movement, if you click again there is no ramp
    Well actually it depends on how fast you click again, I have the ramps set to be very long so I can observe them, and what happens is that the ramp up starts on the first click, and if the second click is soon enough it will still be ramping up, takes over where the previous click stopped. Am I making sense?

    I think this is a problem

    Thanks
    Marc


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    Marc,

    When you changed the drives did you go to microstepping. The stock drives ran full step (1000 counts=1" or 1 count=.001").

    Darek



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    Hi Darek, yes I am microstepping.

    Thanks
    Marc


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    Member HuFlungDung's Avatar
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    Marc,

    Have you tried a normal short Accel and a longer Decel? I would suspect that this could be where there could be a bottleneck in what is going out to the motor. Using a long Decel ramp might allow a smoother overlap between clicks.

    First you get good, then you get fast. Then grouchiness sets in.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Yes, looking at the scope i see the ramps are just not applied

    Thanks
    Marc


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    Marc,

    You may be suffering a loss of torque due to microstepping. The original motors required 8+ amps in fullstep, I do not know what the microstep amps should be.

    I see you said it is a series II that means originaly 2000 counts=1" or 1 count=.0005"

    You will probably have to reduce your RAPIDSPEED setting to a speed your stepper can start at for handwheel operation.

    Darek



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    Darek, I see,

    I will try it without the micro stepping, and see what happens.

    Thanks
    Marc


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    Marc,

    You may have two separate issues and we assure you that the handwheel ACCEL,DECEL,RAPIDSPEED rates and OK2STOP time period are all adjustable to achieve what you want to do. We need you to contact us directly to better understand what is happening and interactively exchange ideas.

    The first problem is more important as you noted. Losing steps has many causes and several solutions. For this we need you to perform the two motion tests on the Diagnostic screen for coordinated with error checking and also un-coordinated check boxes and e-mail us the Logfile.fil for each axes.

    This is actually something we would like a dealer/installer to do on-site. So if you would like assistance please let us know.

    When we are finished we can post the results here plus any advice that could be helpful others.

    Tech Support
    CamSoft Corp.
    (909) 674-8100
    support@camsoftcorp.com
    www.cnccontrols.com

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Make sure that your drives and power supply are sized right for your step motors. Also the way these are wired makes a difference as well. As someone said ealier that depending on the step setting the amperage required may be more or less.

    Stepper motor wiring: Parallel verses Series
    Parallel is used for high torque at high speeds.
    Series is used for high torque at low speeds.
    Both could hold the same amount of torque, but best at either high speeds or low
    speeds. This would be application specific. However you should determin which way
    is best to wire the motors in your case before figuring the power supply.

    Parallel connection uses 2/3 the motors rated current.
    Series connection uses 1/3 the motors rated curent.


    Steppers loose tourque pretty easily especially durring acceleration and deceleration. Adjusting the ACCEL/DECEL and RAPIDSPEED settings as suggested by camsoft would be a key issue and conservative values should be used to start with. You said that even at 1 IPM your motors were loosing steps (tourque most likley) and may be a wiring issue with the drives/motors or the power supply. It is also not recommended to daisy chain power supply wires from one drive to the next. Each should have their wires directly to the power supply or possibly a seperate power supply for each all together.

    intrusion



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    There is a separate supply for each, the previous drives did not lose steps (had another problem). The motors are rated at 8.9A, the drives are 10A. ??

    Thanks
    Marc


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    We have received the Logfile.fil files for both test regarding the loss of torque or steps. The handwheel positioning is becoming clear, but we are going to get into this next. Test here using the handwheel are working fine using CNC Professional, 4 stepper motors and the handwheel.

    After looking at the log files from the 2 test the first problem we believe is related to loss of torque at these speeds.

    We didn't understand the situation at first, but now see that these are new amps from Anaheim Automation that have made this difference recently. The original amps that we provided last year didn't have this problem as Marc states. With the results of these tests you can now explore the loss of amp torque further with the Anaheim Automation dealer or change the amps back when you can. We not sure if its the wiring method as Mr. Intrustion said, but they should perform at least as well.

    On to the handwheel.

    "The answers are out there..."

    Tech Support
    CamSoft Corp.
    (909) 674-8100
    support@camsoftcorp.com
    www.cnccontrols.com

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    I had a chance to go play with the hand wheel over the week end. My customer has older style brushed servo motors not steppers.

    I wanted find out for myself so I tried several setting changes and got myself into a mess. I saved the original CBK file and got it back but I can see how someone would need some help.

    The end result was that I was able to jog or position with the handwheel using various combinations of OK2STOP, TACH, ACCEL, DECEL , RAPIDSPEED and the setting to set number of counts per click.

    I know Camsoft is listening so in their defense I would of got myself into the same mess if I played around with any bodys system parameters. It was possible with a little common sense to do anything I wanted if I just thought about what I wanted to do and took the time to see what each of these settings would do for me.

    There's a lot of choices, but that's what I like about the Camsoft system.

    Robert



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    I do not have a warm & fuzzy feeling at this moment. The 3 original MicroKinetics drives which I purchased from Camsoft as part of a complete package less than a year ago have not been very reliable. One failed within a few days of installation and all 3 failed about 3 weeks ago, so my machine has been down since. MK was not at all helpful as far as expediting replacements or repair, and just now charged me to fix the boards even though they advertise a 5 year warranty. 2 weeks ago in the interest of expediency, and not exactly a big fan of MK I purchased 3 new Anaheim Automation drives . The customer service at Anaheim is night and day compared to MK, however despite our best efforts for whatever reason we can't get the AA drives to work properly at this time. I will know more when I re-install the MK's.

    Except for the fact I purchased the drives from Camsoft, this is not their problem. I'm almost 110% sure it is hardware, I'll know for sure when the MK boards are back. After working with it for a year now I will say I like the flexibility available with the software.

    Thanks
    Marc


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    Marc,

    I am curious why you chose to stay with the open loop stepper motors instead of replacing them with closed loop servos?

    I feel this is one of the most dramatic improvements that can be made on these mills. ( Just like when Bridgeport did it from BOSS7 to 8.)

    Darek



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    Darek,

    I did not know enough at the time, and in retrospect very much wish I had done that. I had not found this forum at the time, and have been learning as I go. I wish someone would have asked me that question back then.

    I have still not ruled it out, anybody interested in some big steppers and drives?

    Thanks
    Marc


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Any real world experience with Camsoft & Steppers

Any real world experience with Camsoft & Steppers