water conversion done to a gas vehicle

[mactec54]

lumberjack_jeff

Good information from the link

Automotive Care, Home Improvement, Tools, DIY Tips - Popular Mechanics

[dustin1706]

Very interesting topic as a theoretical discussion.

I really don't think that you could improve efficiency with a hydrogen supplement system. Adding hydrogen to a gasoline combustion will assist in burning any fuel that would otherwise be sent out the exhaust (not much on a modern vehicle), and will provide some energy simply from it's own combustion. Agreed? Now, of course we can all agree that it requires a good bit of energy to break the Hydrogen-Oxygen bond of the water. The debate seems to be where the energy comes from to break that bond.

The alternator of most common vehicles puts out 60-100 amps @ 12v but then there is a voltage regulator that is generally set around 13.5v. The claim appears to be that alternator doesn't care if it is sending electricity to the battery or not, it still robs the same amount of energy from the engine, and that you may as well use that energy to separate some hydrogen and run it into the intake manifold. Thing is... With an alternator as soon as it detects less than 13.5v on the battery side it increases current to the armature. This raises the power of the magnetic field which in turn forces the alternator to produce more electricity also making it harder to turn.


The only way this should even be debatable, is if someone says that the benefit of the added hydrogen is greater than the benefit of reduced drag from the alternator. Seeing as how the energy goes from chemical potential (gas) to kinetic(engine) to electrical(alt.) to chemical potential(H2) to kinetic (engine) and none of those conversions is 100% efficient... I don't see how the hydrogen system could possibly have a measurable effect, let alone the 15-30% that some of these kits claim.

The only places that you can get "free" energy from your vehicle are from the places where energy is "wasted". The main waste from your vehicle is heat from combustion and braking. So I can see regenerative braking being an option, and I've never seen it mentioned, but why could you not theoretically use a heat to electricity converter (thermocouple, thermionic converter, etc.) to get back some of that heat that would be dispersed to atmosphere otherwise?

The problem with even those types of systems is that you then need a process to turn the electricity back into kinetic energy by adding a whole electric motor setup (hybrid) or a hydrogen system like we are talking about, and again, each energy conversion has losses due to efficiency and it becomes cost ineffective.
Some day...

If you want mileage, inflate your tires a bit more and evenly, keep off the skinny pedal, use synthetic fluids, keep your steering aligned, check/replace your bearings/hubs... The list goes on and on.

[handlewanker]

Hi all, a thought occured to me....in the case of the hydro/oxy "fuel" generator, the argument was that the alternator had to work extra hard to produce more current to break the water into Hydrogen/Oxygen, very true, law of physics and common sense.

So that being the case, it is entirely feasible to have an exhaust turbo generator, that doesn't put a load on the engine at all, but captures some if not all of the exhaust waste energy that blasts out of the rear end, and so allowing the turbo generator to produce the electrics needed to drive the Hydrogen/Oxygen generator without using some of the engines energy.....something definately for nothing.

This is just a theory, as I don't intend to go down this path, but having the means now to produce the extra power needed to produce Hydrogen/Oxygen, then it COULD be argued that the Hydro/Oxy set-up, (which is self generating) is a viable means of extending the gas mileage without affecting the engine's performance.

You cannot extract power from the exhaust in anyway yet tried, and turbo charging is only a way to increase the engines power output at the expense of increased fuel consumption.

The other lost energy source is the heat from the exhaust and cooling system......couple these to a boiler and to a steam turbo generator and you might get the system up to 50%.....but pigs could also fly given the incentive....LOL.
Ian.

[bgraham111]

I used to work for an automotive company, and we looked at using the exhaust heat to do something for us, because, as you mentioned, it's just energy leaving the vehicle.

We looked at using it to supplement the vehicle heaters, to heat the car up faster in cold weather. (Yes, the car heater is just waste heat energy anyway, we were just trying to catch it in two places instead of one.) It worked. Worked well even. But the cost of the added equipment just wasn't worth the fuel savings and faster heat up time.

We did find (as we should have known right away anyway...) any restriction in the exhaust line makes the engine work harder, and hotter, which wastes more fuel. So you would have to be careful there...

We also looked into using thermoelectric devices (and our friend, the Seebeck Effect) to generate electricity from a heat differential (between exhaust and ambient air). It also works, and is also not cost effective. Oh well.

So yes, you can catch some of the waste energy leaving the vehicle... just have to ask yourself if it's worth it. I'm sure we'll catch more energy as time goes on... (i just feel that the H2O car is a total scam)

[handlewanker]

I quite agree with the FACT that H2O produced from the car's prime energy source is a scam, in that you use more of it to produce less additive (H2O).

When the primary energy source produces a percentage of unused energy that goes to waste, then if these idiots who promote the scam just went and coupled a turbo generator to the exhaust system as is done for turbo boosting, then I think they would have had a viable product to promote, and could justly be credible in their statement of increasing gas mileage by producing H2O for nothing, but for some that is total rocket science.

Most of them are junk yard DIY'ers who scratch around junk yards for bits and pieces and make weird and wonderfull contraptions that never sell because they are derived from addle brained thinking, and only have a desire to get rich for nothing instead of approaching the subject from a scientific basis.

Some years ago in the 80's I read an article in the FEN magazine (Factory Equipment News) about a village in Holland that had a central power generator run from a diesel engine generator set-up.

It maximised the output by harnessing the exhaust output to a turbo generator and also made steam from the coolingng system and exhaust heat to drive another steam turbo generator, so practically all waste energy was used as far as possible....never heard any more about it, so can't follow up the practicallity of the system.

I expect there are figures that would suggest that the diesel fuel consumed to produce the electricity, could have been better used by running a gas turbine generator directly coupled, as there is no water cooling required to waste heat, with the exhaust going to a regenerator, plus there is only one moving part and no lubrication system, but they might have just extended the grid and done away with the need for a seperate genny system.
Ian.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Ian, gas turbine powered generators are often coupled with steam turbines to generate additional electricity. Usually there will be multiple gas turbines providing exhaust heat for a single steam turbine.

Another form of co-generation. Sometimes additional heat is added to the mix to get the steam pressure high enough to meet power demand, but it still is a big improvement in the total power station efficiency. A couple of percentage points in efficiency improvement can equate to millions of dollars in fuel costs.

Dick Z

[handlewanker]

Hi Bgraham111, the aspect of exhaust restriction to flow is a factor that retrofitting a turbo has to be contended with.

When a car engine has already been designed with a turbo booster in the exhaust system, then for the economy minded experimenter, it would be entirely feasible to remove the turbo unit, redesign it to make a turbo generator and couple it to an H2O generator and have the increased economy that otherwise would go to waste.

I would think that a car could be "adapted" to enable another type of engine with a turbo generator set-up/H2O generator to be fitted, and win any gas mileage test so far tried, like the Mobile Economy run series that they used (still do?) have in the 60's.

This is quite an exciting concept because if'n the enhanced efficiency of turbo derived H2O can increase the gas mileage, then the IC piston engine will rival if not exceed the gas turbine for efficiency compared to the plain piston IC engine which is simpler to make, no exotic materials, even if'n it has more moving parts, it's very well developed for user maintenance and everyday use.

I would envisage that for the future, the IC engine running on 100% Ethanol or a diesel with straight vegetable oil and a turbo derived H2O generator, could hold it's own against the hybrid invasion, and if'n serious thought was put to designing a more efficient H2O generator instead of the DIY hotch potch so far "designed", then anything is possible.

I would also go as far as to dream that the total electric drive car with an IC piston/H2O engine only driving a generator and independent electric drive to the wheels as opposed to the microturbine now being developed, would simplify the so far extremely "iffy" turbine set-up for every day use.

In my opinion the extremely exotic nature of microturbines make them far removed from simple servicing when and if'n they need to be worked on.

The plus for microturbines is they can use just about any fuel that can be burned, but an exhaust turbo generator for H2O production on a micro turbine has got to be seen to be believed, as I think after the regeneration stage of the turbine proper, very little drive exist to drive another turbo set-up for H2O production.
Ian.

[starsduck]

I was cruising through the forums looking for completely unrelated info when I stumbled upon this thread. My first thought about water injection was not from the standpoint of using it as a fuel, but more of an economy booster... so I dug up a book i bought about 15 years ago or more, "Performance With Economy" and read a little about it, basically the water was used in minute quantities to cool down the combustion chamber. This effectively allowed a higher compression ratio to be used with street fuel.

As for using Hydrogen as an I.C.E fuel, Its been done, a lot, ford had a full fleet of Hydrogen fueled Focus' in Michigan around 2005, problem there is not very many places to gas up on hydrogen.