F1 engine project

[Stevie]

I always thought that a 1/4 scale cosworth DFV would be a neat project. Maybe someday!

They won't help you; but there might be a 2nd option as many were re-built by other companies other than Cosworth themselves

[RotarySMP]

Hi Stevie,

I see you posted this yesterday, so you may be finished already , If not, have you seen the plans for the Whittle V8? Much smaller scale, but you might pick up ideas.

They are in the files section , along with a couple of other engines, in this Yahoo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mlproj...Gas%20Engines/

[Stevie]

nope not finished yet; I've got a really bad cold; keeping up most of the night; no sleep!! hard to think
I have tons of other stuff on the go; the Gantry covers/limit switches and Mini mill servo conversion; this engine 3D design project is when I have a min or 2 free

[RotarySMP]

Sorry to hear that. Hope you get well soon.

Have you built small engines before? Maybe a single cylinder proof of concept would be appropriate before diving into the V10?

[Stevie]

I have made a couple but a long time ago; 2 stokes
But your idea has merit; might make Vtwin based on the V10; it would prove lots of things and might save a ton of time overall

[turmite]

Steve and others,

I'm curious about the power of the little 1/4 scale engines and don't know any better than to ask! What kind of power can be expected from something like this?

Mike

[fyffe555]

Stevie,

Excellent project - I'd really like to see that. If it's to the same standard as your machines it will be excellent. I have a friend who's a design Draftsman at Judd's in the UK. I'll drop him a mail and see what he can come up with.

Renault tried a 72 and a 110 degree bank angle but settled like everyone else to 90 degree . All run 72 degree pin cranks.

What do you intend to do about bearings? A one piece crank with six mains and five pins is a lot of bearings. Are you thinking split shell or roller?

One trick the big boys use is to have the cylinder banks in line for balance, and use forked rods or offset small ends. In the merlin engine where there wasn't the same level of bearing tech as there is today the cylinder, piston and rod where all on the same centre and one rod end of each pair was forked around the other. With a steel backed babbit running all the way through - advantage here was because of the firing cycle each rod effectively got twice the bearing area over that the style used in the chevy v8's.

Are you going to run a liner in the bores? It would probably be simpler to have the crankcase, blocks and heads seperate and use crankcase studs through the blocks and heads.. If you run a liner, either CI or steel then you could run the liners wet for cooling by simply undercutting the blocks.


Turmite; approximate comparision motoguzzi had a 500cc v8 in 1956 that produced 75hp, honda's 250 six produced 60hp, there's a 1/5 scale merlin turning a 24x12 three bladed prop at over 2000 rpm - that's at least 20hp EDIT: Opps that should be 34x12....


this stuff is great...

Andrew

[Carel]

And then there were the 1967-1968 3 cylinder DOHC 12-valve Honda 50cc and Suzuki 50cc two-stroke 3-cilinder. The parts of these real racing engines would have to small for this model-project!

Carel

[Stevie]

Stevie,

Excellent project - I'd really like to see that. If it's to the same standard as your machines it will be excellent. I have a friend who's a design Draftsman at Judd's in the UK. I'll drop him a mail and see what he can come up with.

Steve
answer; Great idea; I got no reply at all



What do you intend to do about bearings? A one piece crank with six mains and five pins is a lot of bearings. Are you thinking split shell or roller?

Steve
answer; might do uncaged rollers running in steel sleeves with 45dgr angled gaps

Are you going to run a liner in the bores? It would probably be simpler to have the crankcase, blocks and heads seperate and use crankcase studs through the blocks and heads.. If you run a liner, either CI or steel then you could run the liners wet for cooling by simply undercutting the blocks.


Steve
answer; Yes; might be brass with nickel plate (same expansion rates)




this stuff is great...

Steve
answer; Yes it is

Andrew

Thanks

[fyffe555]

OK, Mate in the UK is no longer there, but even so he was very tight on info. He worked on the 4 litre 72dgree v10's apparently. His comments revolved around the engineering that goes into a modern engine and a lot of it apparently has nothing to do with motor power, rather as a stressed member of the chassis the engine needs to be engineered to carry the g/box, rear suspension and associated loads as much as move the car. Had nothing much to add about the actual design elements other than to say they're pretty much standard, just highly developed..

Thinking it over, millions are spent on these engines that couldn't run at all without modern day Fuel injection and engine management that might be a bit tough to duplicate in scale. Theres almost no flywheel effect at all for example. Most development goes into areas you probably wouldn't attempt to duplicate in detail like the flow porting, exotic cam profiles and removal of parasitic drag on the moving parts, the absence of any of these wouldn't stop a scale motor running.

One concern might be that there's a lot of exotic stuff on the full size crank and that rev's are achieved with very over square engine. Without some careful engineering careful and exotic materials balancing on the crank in the full size, the webs would not leave enough space for a decent sized piston skirt. Might have to go for a longer than scale stroke.

Valve angles would probably better at the pretty much standard cossie dfv 22 degrees or so and I'd consider stainless valves in phos bronze valve guides. Easier to machine and at that scale there's probably little weight gain over more exotic stuff.
Glowplugs and methanol fuels would make life easier, though there's some pretty small plugs available for the model four strokes now.

Fuel delivery would be the biggest challenge I suspect..

interesting exercise for the grey matter.

[One of Many]

Have you seen this video of the scale Ferrari?

Miniature Ferrari312

The video is very poor, but you can look at it in the smaller version to see it better.

DC

[Stevie]

Thanks for trying!!

The design is very over sq now with 32mm bore 27mm stoke
The Valves will be simple on the cnc lathes i already have; basically I designed the idea around what i have; anything like cam grinding I'll make a machine for