Newbie- Bridgeport or Hurco, which one is better?

[easyrider123]

Hello everybody... I am stuck. I am trying to buy a old(cheap) cnc mill for my garage so I can work at home, before I lose my job. I have 2 to choose from, but I have no idea which one would be better.. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.. My choices are a 1984 Hurco SM1 ($2500) or a 1989 Bridgeport Interact Series 1 with a Heidenhain 151 controler ($4000).
Both are in good condition and fully operational(so they say).

I know g-codes and I have Bobcad.. Both machines have a rs232 port so I can download programs. I like the BP but the y travel is only 12", the Hurco has a 13.75" travel. I don't know if this will be a problem in the future.
I like the price of the Hurco becouse Im going to lose my job soon and cash is really tight. I included a picture of each. Hopefully somebody out there can helpe me figure out whic of the 2 machines would be better.. Thank-you very much..

[jmelson]

Originally Posted by easyrider123 Hello everybody... I am stuck. I am trying to buy a old(cheap) cnc mill for my garage so I can work at home, before I lose my job. I have 2 to choose from, but I have no idea which one would be better.. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.. My choices are a 1984 Hurco SM1 ($2500) or a 1989 Bridgeport Interact Series 1 with a Heidenhain 151 controler ($4000). Both are in good condition and fully operational(so they say). I know g-codes and I have Bobcad.. Both machines have a rs232 port so I can download programs. I like the BP but the y travel is only 12", the Hurco has a 13.75" travel. I don't know if this will be a problem in the future. I like the price of the Hurco becouse Im going to lose my job soon and cash is really tight. I included a picture of each. Hopefully somebody out there can helpe me figure out whic of the 2 machines would be better.. Thank-you very much..

Go with the Hurco, keep the extra money for tooling and incidentals. Both have older controls that might be quite hard to get service for if something breaks. Make sure you have the worst-case contingency planned for! With any of these older machines, there is a REAL possibility that the control will not work when delivered! It might just be a loose connector, but could be more serious. You are not going to like the cost of repair parts from the vultures, and probably new control parts from the factory will not be available for either. The Bridgeport has a slight edge as there are a HELL of a lot more of them out there, and Bridgeport just doesn't change much of the mechanical stuff over time. But, unless the machine falls off the truck, the mechanicals of both machines are just rock solid and it is quite unlikely you'll have any problems there. One thing to check is that the lube system's metering orifices are working. You may have to replace all the orifices, they can get gummed up and leave some critical part of the machine run dry.

Anyway, you may want to plan on a retrofit to a PC control with either of these. That way, if anything breaks, you will know it inside and out and be able to fix it fairly quickly. Without a lot of industrial control experience, diving into either of these controls would be bewildering even with the manuals, and totally impossible without.

The difference between 12 and 13.75" is not likely to make much difference. I only have about 7.25" Y travel here, due to some errors in my retrofit, and it rarely causes a problem.

Jon

[easyrider123]

Originally Posted by jmelson Go with the Hurco, keep the extra money for tooling and incidentals. Both have older controls that might be quite hard to get service for if something breaks. Make sure you have the worst-case contingency planned for! With any of these older machines, there is a REAL possibility that the control will not work when delivered! It might just be a loose connector, but could be more serious. You are not going to like the cost of repair parts from the vultures, and probably new control parts from the factory will not be available for either. The Bridgeport has a slight edge as there are a HELL of a lot more of them out there, and Bridgeport just doesn't change much of the mechanical stuff over time. But, unless the machine falls off the truck, the mechanicals of both machines are just rock solid and it is quite unlikely you'll have any problems there. One thing to check is that the lube system's metering orifices are working. You may have to replace all the orifices, they can get gummed up and leave some critical part of the machine run dry. Anyway, you may want to plan on a retrofit to a PC control with either of these. That way, if anything breaks, you will know it inside and out and be able to fix it fairly quickly. Without a lot of industrial control experience, diving into either of these controls would be bewildering even with the manuals, and totally impossible without. The difference between 12 and 13.75" is not likely to make much difference. I only have about 7.25" Y travel here, due to some errors in my retrofit, and it rarely causes a problem. Jon

Thank you very much Jon, I was considering the Hurco also, and if it did break down I would retrofit it with Mach3. But a machinist at work told me Mach3 still has some bugs in it causing the machine to cut the parts wrong ocasionaly. If your machining $400 parts and they turn out wrong your loses add up quickly. So he said I should stick with the original controller as long as possible.
So would it be worth paying the extra money for the BP with the Heidenhain controller which is 5 yrs. newer. And just keep it runing.
Also you mentioned the lube system. The Hurco has a manual lube and the BP has and automatic lube system. Does this really make a big differance? I guess it all depends on who is operating the machine....
Thanks again

[DonnieET]

Look at the spindle the Hurco uses Kiwk Switch 200 the cost of tooling adds up quickly. I paid more for tooling than I did my machine that had a dead controller.

If money will be tight go with EMC2. Use the Mesa 5i20 PCI card with the 7i33 and 7i37 daughter cards and a old Pentium 4 pc and you will be able to use the orginal motors and drives. Mach will not run the servo's and unless you get a drive like the viper 200.

What's I did with My SM1.

Donnie

[jmelson]

Originally Posted by easyrider123 Thank you very much Jon, I was considering the Hurco also, and if it did break down I would retrofit it with Mach3. But a machinist at work told me Mach3 still has some bugs in it causing the machine to cut the parts wrong ocasionaly. If your machining $400 parts and they turn out wrong your loses add up quickly. So he said I should stick with the original controller as long as possible. So would it be worth paying the extra money for the BP with the Heidenhain controller which is 5 yrs. newer. And just keep it runing. Also you mentioned the lube system. The Hurco has a manual lube and the BP has and automatic lube system. Does this really make a big differance? I guess it all depends on who is operating the machine.... Thanks again

Well, some people with Mach3 seems to have it under control, but I've also talked to people
who have had problems like you describe. I use EMC2 here in my shop, and have been using some version of EMC since 1999. I have had an occasional problem, but never have I had a program that worked one day and not the next. Once the G-code is working, it keeps on working. EMC2 also allows you a much more flexible and capable control for true servos, where
actual machine position is available every millisecond to the PC, and all moves are based on actual measured position and velocity. Also, with EMC2's built-in graphing capability, you can actually measure following error while moving the machine, so you can determine during setup what the following error will be during various accelerations and velocities.

I wouldn't pay much attention to the lube system, as long as you are not planning lights-out
operation or long production runs. The powered lube pump can give it a little shot every 30 minutes, which is kind of nice.

The first time any commercial CNC control breaks in your garage shop, you will be sweating bullets! What would you do if you were in the middle of an important job, and you need a $3000 repair part for the control? Can you isolate the bad part yourself, or will you need to call in a repair guy even to find out what needs to be replaced? If you think the 1989 control is going to be a lot more reliable than the 1984 control, I seriously doubt it. They are both over TWENTY YEARS old! I started with a 20 year old Allen-Bradley control before I moved to the original EMC. It took me a couple weeks to get the control running when I got it, and then it had 3 breakdowns in 9 months. Since I was an old minicomputer guy, and had the full A-B manuals, I was able to fix it, but it got to where every time I went to use it, I was afraid it wouldn't run when I turned it on.
And, the A-B control was built like a TANK.

One other thing is that the PC controls are a LOT more friendly to use than those early CNC controls. You can "preview" the toolpath, both graphically and by the CNC program scanning the program for things it will consider errors BEFORE you start cutting, instead of an hour into the program.

Jon

[HimyKabibble]

Mach3 works pretty darned well. The majority of the problems people report are not problems with Mach3 at all, but problems with the machine, or the program. Part of the power of Mach3 is that it is almost infinitely customizable, but because of that people modify it without understanding the implications of the changes they're making. For example, a lot of people write macros to do "gee whiz" things, but write them in such a way that they interfere with reliable operation of the trajectory code. First thing everyone blames is the Mach3 software, when 90% of the problems are hardware (either the PC or the machine) or just bad G-code.

Regards,
Ray L.

[skullworks]

This is more about a compatability issue.

Hurco servo amps are controlled in the proper +/-10V analog feedback method not using step and direction like a stepper motor. - Mach3 just doesn't have a handle on this yet.

One big Question - is it a "B" or a "BX" control - there is a big jump in encoder resolution and functionality. The "B" is the older unit.

BTW - U.S. Shop tools sells new collets to fit the Universal Acra-flex collet chucks at a very decent price.

[easyrider123]

Ok Ok Ok you win...Jon... You have convined me to go with the Hurco.. You really got my attention when you said your Allen-Bradley controler broke down 3X in 9 months. I had always heard good things about them. But like you said they are over 20 yrs. old. And I certainly don't want to spend my time making repairs instead of parts. And like you said who wants to worry about a $3000 repair bill some time in the future.
I will buy the Hurco, save some money and just plan on a retroft. But who is this Emc2. I have heard of mach3, but not emc2.. I really like what you said, that the actual machine position is available every millisecond to the PC, and all moves are based on actual measured position and velocity. I am asuming Mach3 doesn't do this!!!! So Emc2 has the potential to be more accurate than Mach3 ???

I have just started doing some research on Emc2 and I like what I see, even though I haven't used linux before..
Yes, I would like to use the original servos and drivers too.
Donnie mentioned EMC2 and a Mesa 5i20 PCI card with the 7i33 and 7i37 daughter cards and a old Pentium 4 pc. This sounds like a good way to go, as long as it is reliable.

Thanks again for shareing your knowledge with me. This kind of information is priceless to me.
And thank-you Donnie for the detailed info. on the cards. That will save me alot of time when Im trying to figure out how to upgrade the SM1.
Hopefully someday I can return the favor..
Thanks again Paul

[easyrider123]

Hey Skullworks, Yes it has the bx updates and the CMC tape emulator software.
So it sounds like Emc2 is definately the way to go. I am hoping this will be a fairly accurate machine once I get it retrofited and running. I am also wondering if I will be able to increase the max. rapid feed rate from the original 100 ipm to maybe 200 ipm after the retrofit with Emc2. If not thats ok, but 200 ipm would be nice.

Thank-you for the heads-up on U.S. Shop tools, I will check that out now.
Thanks Paul

[skullworks]

Universal AF type compatable collets from U.S. Shoptools

http://www.usshoptools.com/current_y...GS_174_175.pdf

Shanks / Chucks / etc.

http://www.usshoptools.com/current_y...df/PGS_259.pdf


I have not seen new U200 AF type collet chucks - but Collis does make the "Rapid Switch 200" in many collet types including ER series.

Likewise there seems to be a steady supply of original U200 tooling for sale on ebay.

[skullworks]

I was planning on doing a Hurco EMC2 conversion on a dead Hurco I knew about... But the owner is Still waffling over if he really wants to sell his dead boat anchor.

So I went looking for a different machine and scored a KM3P with the Max32 upgrade in good working order.

I would still like to find another Hurco and do the conversion - because I want to have a full 4th axis, and the cost to do that with the Hurco control would cost more than the entire machine.

Having 2 Hurco's using tooling common to both appeals to me.

[DonnieET]

The factory max traverse rate on a SM1 is 250ipm.