Newbie- Need some answers to Q's - Plz.

[T63-A-700]

I have seen all the machines on YouTube and read numerous post about retrofits but I have some questions I know you all can assist with. First I will set up the retrofit.



Bridgeport Series I Interact, SEM DC brushed servo motors, Bosch analog drives, pneumatic spindle speed control (poosibly changing to VFD), pneumatic brake, pneumatic oiler, integrated coolant pump and Heindenhain encoders with 4X multipliers.

I have a PIII 1 GHz, 1 Gig of ram, WIN XP Professional computer with ELO touch screen.

Some of the controls parts will be OPTO 22 SSRs on a SSR back plane, momentary jog switches, XYZ limit switches and XYZ reference switches. Panel mount MPG, multiple PowerOne regulated DC power supplies and a host of misc switches and other control components.

Now for the questions:

1. What is the best control software for a retrofit?

2. If the answer to Q1 is MACH 3, how does one deal will the fact that it does not support closed loop feedback from encoders? Does homing the machine periodically provide enough protection from missed or lost steps?

3. Does the choice of breakout boards affect MACH or other control software performance? If so what is your choice and why?

4. What do you perfer in retrofits - steppers or servos.

5. If you have servos do you keep the analog drives or do you bite the bullet and upgrade to newer digital drives?

6. If you keep the analog drives what choice of DACs do you use?

7. Has anyone used the "Smooth Stepper" product? If you have what are your thoughts?

8. Has anyone used the Geko G100 product? If you have what are your thoughts?

9. Any thoughts on the CNC Brain product? Any users of the product and what are your thoughts on the product?

10. What is your thought on the trend in home CNC control market and what do you believe will happen in the next one to two years.

11. What do you use for spindle control - VFD, stepped pulleys, varible speed drive plates - pulleys or dedicated spindle drive (additional servo)?

12. What advise would you give to someone who is just getting their feet wet.

Sorry for the long winded post but I would like to make good, wise decisions based on the vast knowledge base of this forum.

TIA,

Todd

[TOTALLYRC]

Originally Posted by T63-A-700 I have seen all the machines on YouTube and read numerous post about retrofits but I have some questions I know you all can assist with. First I will set up the retrofit. Bridgeport Series I Interact, SEM DC brushed servo motors, Bosch analog drives, pneumatic spindle speed control (poosibly changing to VFD), pneumatic brake, pneumatic oiler, integrated coolant pump and Heindenhain encoders with 4X multipliers. I have a PIII 1 GHz, 1 Gig of ram, WIN XP Professional computer with ELO touch screen. Some of the controls parts will be OPTO 22 SSRs on a SSR back plane, momentary jog switches, XYZ limit switches and XYZ reference switches. Panel mount MPG, multiple PowerOne regulated DC power supplies and a host of misc switches and other control components. Now for the questions: 1. What is the best control software for a retrofit? 2. If the answer to Q1 is MACH 3, how does one deal will the fact that it does not support closed loop feedback from encoders? Does homing the machine periodically provide enough protection from missed or lost steps? 3. Does the choice of breakout boards affect MACH or other control software performance? If so what is your choice and why? 4. What do you perfer in retrofits - steppers or servos. 5. If you have servos do you keep the analog drives or do you bite the bullet and upgrade to newer digital drives? 6. If you keep the analog drives what choice of DACs do you use? 7. Has anyone used the "Smooth Stepper" product? If you have what are your thoughts? 8. Has anyone used the Geko G100 product? If you have what are your thoughts? 9. Any thoughts on the CNC Brain product? Any users of the product and what are your thoughts on the product? 10. What is your thought on the trend in home CNC control market and what do you believe will happen in the next one to two years. 11. What do you use for spindle control - VFD, stepped pulleys, varible speed drive plates - pulleys or dedicated spindle drive (additional servo)? 12. What advise would you give to someone who is just getting their feet wet. Sorry for the long winded post but I would like to make good, wise decisions based on the vast knowledge base of this forum. TIA, Todd

Hi Todd,

Here are my answers/opinions.

1.Mach3

2.DSPMC/IP from Vital systems. See my build thread

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66994

3.I use candcnc breakout boards when using the pport.

4.I went with servos on mine, but steppers on the smaller machines.

5.See my answer to number 2.

6.See my answer to number 2.

7,8, and 9.Not yet

10. My crystal ball is out for repair at the moment.

11. VFD Hitachi sj200 sensorless vector with the factory 2 speed transmission

12. While I am not saying throw money away, buy quality the first time.
Take your time. Read the Mach 3 instalation manual several times before starting.

Mike

[T63-A-700]

Just the kind of info I am looking for. Thanks for the build thread, looks great. This gets me fired up again (check the time). I am about to move my machine into my shop. I have had it in storage at another shop for the tear down for the past two years.

You have stoked the fire again, I am going in the AM to look at my machine and figure out what I need to do to move it.



Todd

[Doug Schwochert]

Hi todd

I did a retrofit on the same machine using geckos and Mach 3 it works perfect
it was not an easy conversion lots of re wiring. it is to complicated to to try an post how I did the conversion. If you have questions call me
Doug 262 763 2725 (T62-T32) www.helicycle.com

[HimyKabibble]

Originally Posted by T63-A-700 I have seen all the machines on YouTube and read numerous post about retrofits but I have some questions I know you all can assist with. First I will set up the retrofit. Bridgeport Series I Interact, SEM DC brushed servo motors, Bosch analog drives, pneumatic spindle speed control (poosibly changing to VFD), pneumatic brake, pneumatic oiler, integrated coolant pump and Heindenhain encoders with 4X multipliers. I have a PIII 1 GHz, 1 Gig of ram, WIN XP Professional computer with ELO touch screen. Some of the controls parts will be OPTO 22 SSRs on a SSR back plane, momentary jog switches, XYZ limit switches and XYZ reference switches. Panel mount MPG, multiple PowerOne regulated DC power supplies and a host of misc switches and other control components. Now for the questions: 1. What is the best control software for a retrofit? 2. If the answer to Q1 is MACH 3, how does one deal will the fact that it does not support closed loop feedback from encoders? Does homing the machine periodically provide enough protection from missed or lost steps? 3. Does the choice of breakout boards affect MACH or other control software performance? If so what is your choice and why? 4. What do you perfer in retrofits - steppers or servos. 5. If you have servos do you keep the analog drives or do you bite the bullet and upgrade to newer digital drives? 6. If you keep the analog drives what choice of DACs do you use? 7. Has anyone used the "Smooth Stepper" product? If you have what are your thoughts? 8. Has anyone used the Geko G100 product? If you have what are your thoughts? 9. Any thoughts on the CNC Brain product? Any users of the product and what are your thoughts on the product? 10. What is your thought on the trend in home CNC control market and what do you believe will happen in the next one to two years. 11. What do you use for spindle control - VFD, stepped pulleys, varible speed drive plates - pulleys or dedicated spindle drive (additional servo)? 12. What advise would you give to someone who is just getting their feet wet. Sorry for the long winded post but I would like to make good, wise decisions based on the vast knowledge base of this forum. TIA, Todd

Todd,

1 - Your only real choices are Mach3 or EMC. Mach3 is, apparently, easier to learn (though it's not easy), and better supported.

2 - If using servos, the servo controllers close the loop. If using steppers, you run open-loop, and you just need to ensure you operate the machine within its limits. Either one will work just fine.

3 - To some extent. I can't recommend which BOB to use, but I can suggest one I would NOT use....

4 - Either will work fine, if properly integrated. For a BP, servos are probably more appropriate, but some very good stepper conversions have been done on BPs as well, and steppers do have a small edge in safety, since they are not subject to "servo runaway".

5 - Use Gecko drives, whether you go stepper or servo. They're cheap, very reliable, very well supported.

6 - N/A

7 - I've been using a SmoothStepper for about 3 months, and could not be happier. It's been absolutely reliable, and greatly improved the performance and reliability of my machine. Even on a very fast PC I could not have achieved the level of performance I now have.

8 - I'd have a hard time recommending it, as development has apparently stopped on it, while SmoothStepper development is still very active.

9 - No idea.

10 - My crystal ball is also in the shop, but I don't see any fundamental changes on the horizon. The technology has not changed in some time. The big change is the prices have come down a LOT over the last 5 years.

11 - VFD on mine. But you still need pulleys to cover a wide enough speed range to handle both large and small tools. If you have air-actuated pulleys, I'd keep that, and add the VFD.

12 - Do lots, and lots of reading, ask for lots of advice, and *understand* what you're doing, and the trade-offs you're making. Be careful taking advice without understanding the reasoning behind it, as there's a huge amount of misinformation, biased information, and old-wives-tales out there. Much of the "conventional wisdom" is just wrong....

Regards,
Ray L.

[T63-A-700]

Hey guys just what I wanted. Just to get some responses from different individuals who have used some of the available equipment and to discuss some of the issues with them as well.

HimyKabibble,

You can PM the response to the BOB question if you like. Which Geckos are or have you used with servos? Smooth Stepper seems to be a direction that I am inclined to take as well. Just wanted to hear of some feedback from others on the product.

Doug,

Glad to hear from someone who has done what I want to do. Are you satisfied with the results of the end product retrofit? Would you have taken a totally different route (machine choice), or were you kind of like me - the machine choose me; not me choose the machine. The Geckos that you are using, are they under volting the servos that you have. My servos are rated for 140 VDC and I have only seen 80 VDC Geckos. Correct me if I am wrong and the Gecko product.

Great looking machine you have on your web site. Looks like a lot of fun. So you get my choice of screen name. What part of WI are you in?



Great fun reading your responses and thanks for the advise. I will be asking more questions as this build slowly progresses.

Todd

[Doug Schwochert]

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I finished up on a interact series 1 conversion with the gecko G 340 controls. the motors are rated at 140 volts I am running 80VDC the machine is a little slower than stock I am able to get 125 IPM. Anything over that it starts to defaut. its OK for a hobby machine may be too slow for a production machine.
I bought an 80 Volt power supply off E bay 3 Gecko 340 s 3 new encoders from US Digital 250 CPR ( I think) and mach 3 mill
I did a little testing before on the motors before I did the conversion just in normal table movement the motor voltage never came even close to 140 volts. even with the 80 volt power supply @75 IPM they only run around 40 volts.I chose the bridgport because that is all I have ever used (All manual machines) I was going to convert my manual machine over to CNC untill I ran into the series 1 on E Bay.
The best part was it was close to me and the price was right. my intentions all along were to convert it to mach.
I tried first Pixie boards to convert it over while still using the Bosch boards. it never worked correct lost a lot of steps. the pixies were designed to work with torque drives the bridgport uses velocity drives (or the other way around) The most critical part is tuning the drives or you will loose steps the motors need to "sing" if they don't they are not tuned correct. I have been using the machine quite a bit does not loose steps at all.

What application is your T63-A-700
Burlington Wi.

Doug S

[HimyKabibble]

Originally Posted by T63-A-700 HimyKabibble, You can PM the response to the BOB question if you like. Which Geckos are or have you used with servos? Smooth Stepper seems to be a direction that I am inclined to take as well. Just wanted to hear of some feedback from others on the product. Todd

Todd,

I am using G320s - there's no advantage to G340s in my configuration, and I doubt there would be in yours either, if you use SmoothStepper. My machine is a BP clone. The motors are 850 oz-in servos from www.homeshopcnc.com. They are fitted with 500 line encoders. The power supply is 70V/15A. I have 1" 4-pitch double-nut ballscrews on X/Y, the stock 5-pitch leadscrew and 2:1 bevel gear drive on the knee. X/Y have 2.5:1 GT2 belt reducers, the knee has a 4.8:1 XL belt reducer. I get WELL over 300 IPM (probably over 400 IPM, but I haven't tried going that fast) on X/Y, and 70 IPM on Z. I haven't yet done the quill, but I'll get to that one of these days.

Regards,
Ray L.

[T63-A-700]

Doug,

Thanks for the insite on the servo voltage. I was not able to check my motor voltage before I disassembled the machine. The X & Y moved with jog. The Z kept faulting after a small jog movement. Great advise, I guess I need to change my thinking a little bit regarding servo drives.

I only wish I had a T63. Awesome piece of machinery. I have always wanted one sense I saw what Nye Thermodynamics did to a jet boat conversion about 10 years ago. Just sweet, and the WOW factor is a +10.

I have two jet boats one is for the hopefully one day conversion (but in realalilty probabley will not happen) and the other is the working gas hoq. Big Block Chevy (468 CI) solid stick cam, two four barrel carbs with tunnel ram - just bad to the core. It did not see much water this season ($4.50 / gal) to much for my wallet. Although JP-4 is not any cheaper.

Ray,

I checked my rating on my servos they are just 30 lb-in (30 x 16 = 480 oz-in). Is the conversion correct? Mine are also belt drive. Not sure of the screw pitch. I will only use mine as hobby machine - would like to recoup some expense though. I am liking the smooth stepper more and more. Just as I mentioned above I might as well abandon the servo drives as well. It will certainly simplifiy the retrofit. These drives require a 380 VAC supply, 360 VAC swing through chokes all the supplies are through x-formers (crazy). My encoders are 250 lines per rev. with a 4 X multiplier.

Regards,

Todd

[HimyKabibble]

Todd,

Your conversion is correct. I think you'll find you can get new DC servos (or steppers) and Geckos for less than it would cost to figure out how to use your existing AC servos. AC servos are great for a serious machine, but overkill for a hobby machine, and considerably more expensive. 250 line encoders would be OK, particularly if you use more like a 4:1 belt reducer, which is quite common on BP conversions.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Doug Schwochert]

the servos are DC. the voltage to the Bosch boards is AC.
No need to change the motors to run them with Gecko's.

I used the G340s for the multipliers was not sure if I was going to need them or not better safe than sorry. did not need them.

Doug

[glengeniii]

Hi,

I have a late 80's Bridgeport BOSS Series 1 that I retrofitted. I was real nervous about retro-fitting with steppers but I couldn't afford a servo system. I would like to say that I am very happy with the stepper set-up I used. I can maintain 150ipm rapids on all three axises, and have only ever lost steps on the z axis when doing heavy drilling operations. This machine is used daily and probably has over 1000 hrs. of operation on it.

Here is my retrofit setup: (I have CAD diagrams and pictures of how I wired and setup everything If anyone wants them, just email me at glengeniii@live.com)

~3 NEMA 34 1380 oz/in 6amp/phase 4 wire steppers for $175 off ebay. (I used shafts and couplers from Misumi and made adapter plates to mount the NEMA 34 bolt pattern to the bridgeports NEMA 42 mounts. I have the CAD data if you wanted.)

~3 Gecko 202 stepper drives $134 ea.

~PMDX-131 breakout / motherboard combo $183 (worth every red cent, if you use Gecko drives buy this board, it simplifies everything.)

~2 220vac/110vac 48vac/24vac 1000watt toroidal transformers wired for 48vac 2000watt output $147 ea. from Allied. (There are better deals out there.)

~PMDX-135-8020 Power preparation module $119 (powered with the two transformers above generates about 68-72vdc.)

~Original Bridgeport double pole anti-plugging switch with overload relay setup.

~Original Bridgeport 1:1 (yes, it's has 1:1 not 1:2) pulley ratio, and 5 pitch ball screws.

~Mach Motion CNC monitor enclosure with control panel $1395 (This was a later edition, it's a good investment but is somewhat costly.)

~Mach 3 cnc control software $159

Here is a little FYI that might be useful:

I tried using the factory Sigma and Superior NEMA 42 steppers, but they would not work properly. I tried wiring them every way possible, but could not get them to generate decent holding/turning torque. I don't know if it was because you can only get 7amps from the Gecko's, (there rated at 8.9 amps/phase) or if all three motors were bad. I also don't think if the motors were good, that 150ipm rapids would be possible with NEMA 42's using Gecko's because of mid-band instability problems, but I could be wrong.

I retained the stock 1:1 timing pulley ratio. (A lot of these machines came with 1:2 ratios.) Almost everyone that retrofits these machines using Gecko drives claim they can only achieve 60ipm rapids before losing steps. I maintain 150ipm rapids and believe it is because of the 1:1 drive ratio, and that I swapped the factory steppers for smaller NEMA 34 drives that the Gecko's are designed to handle. Another note definitely worth mentioning is that with the 1:1 drive ratio I can maintain higher cutting feed rates than with the 2:1 drive ratio. The reason is because a steppers torque output is exponentially dependent and inversely proportional to the motors rpm. It is a common misconception that an increase in drive ratios will always increase a motor's performance at specific feed rates. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't it depends on the motor. With my set up, a 2:1 drive ratio would only produce 28% of the force a 1:1 ratio would produce at 40ipm. Optimal would be 1.11 ratio which would give about 13% more force. I wanted to increase my machines performance on the z-axis but 13% isn't worth machining new pulleys.

I would also like to add that both PMDX and Geckodrives produce inexpensive high qualities products, and are outstanding companies that offer excellent customer support.