Bridgeport Vmc 1000 1996

[skydivebase]

Hi,

I'm looking to purchase a machine to do short run 2d and 3d machining of aluminium and tooling board. Can someone give me a few simple opinions of this age and brand of machine.

Draw backs compared to a more modern machine? Or problems that may arise because of lack of functionality? What kind of controller would this machine most likely have (I'm waiting for more details on this specific machine so a head start would be cool)?


Any input would be great.
Jeremy

[machintek]

I have quite a few of these doing 3D work in my territory. They typically came with the DX32 control (PC based). Not very fast in 3D as they will move with a shudder because the software had a problem with look ahead and could not do the math fast enough (about 40IPM is max). There are better machines out there to do 3D work. Google Bridgeport law suits. I remember seeing a possible class action law suit about this very fact.

George

[NC Cams]

The one "class action" law suit was pretty much lost because it was judged as not fitting the properly defined category of a federal class action.

Seems that BPT claimed in defending the suit that each machine was sold "idividually" to a client through a dealer. Because of the customization of the machine (with, without changers, etc) as well as a lot of other legal mumbo jumbo, BPT argued that the term "class action" didn't suit and the suit got shut down as the court apparently agreed.

In the above suit, the Plaintiff claimed that "all DX-32's" were defective by the Plaintiff but BPT successfully contended that the success of the machine and the controller was dependant on material being, cut, tool path optimization and of course, cutter selection. Naturally, wrong choices here will pretty much assure that nothing will work properly even if the controller was spot on which it may not have been - at least not on par with today's equipment/controllers.

If anybody knows about the field service and/or performance of BMDC based controllers in various BPT machines of that vintage, it would be Machinetek - he knows of what he speaks.

FWIW, the neighbor has some Haas VMC's and he's done BEAUTIFUL billet CNC work with his machines. They are all of recent vintage, most have been in place for at least 5 years.

In light of the fact that EMI is now pretty much the sole supplier of service for BMDC based Bridgeport machines, and supposedly they acquired the rights to the BMDC controller/software, you surely won't be able to rely on Hardinge/Bridgeport for support. When I called Hardinge, they pretty much blew me off to EMI.

The subsequent support I got from EMI was both HOT and cold. THe one guy I talked to who was supposedly a principal of the company went into a lot of detail during a call.

The next time I called, I got someone else and they were VERY difficult to deal with and beyond obnoxious - no help or poor help at best as the info he gave was flat WRONG. Waste of time and money that ultimately got refunded after some intense conversations.

The third time I called, the next guy I talked with admitted after some give and take that they didn't have all the source codes to the BMDC sofware. Hence, they were pretty much stuck with fixing what had been developed - the impression was that there was not a lot if any updates available nor projected due to an inability to fix/change some of the source codes.

From this, I'd be inclined to say you're going to be stuck with what you have when you get it. Should the thing you buy have software based bad manners, don't expect a fix anytime soon - the impression I got from the conversations I had is/was that EMI is only fixing the systems. They did not give the impression that they were interested in developing or expanding or appreciably modernizing the operation of the essentially obsolete DOS based BMDC controller as this was outside of the scope of their particular business model.

Impressions are highly subjective but it would seem that if you plan to do intense 3D work, something more contemporary that you can SEE operate and get factory serviced (especially with software fixes) might be a better choice.

[skydivebase]

Now that's the kind of information that is good to have this side of a purchase. Thanks heaps for your detailed responses.

[NC Cams]

After having done a LOT of development on a BMDC based Eztrak and also owning a V2XT, I'd be inclined to say that the DX-32 controller, all in all, is "adequate" for a mid 90's based CNC system.

Keep in mind that it was limited by the use of a 133mhz max DOS PC using ISA slots (many with much slower PC's from the OEM). In light of the processing speed this level of machine has, you can NOT expect it to be a rocket ship when it comes to light speed tool path execution. Forget about using a faster PC as the PLC card won't reliably work in anything faster than 133mhz. Besides, finding ANY PC with ISA slots (outside of dumpster diving) is all but impossible or VERY expensive.

Some of the IC"s on the PLC that make up the BMDC control card in the DX-32 systems were actually Amiga based. Hence, we're talking pretty archaic/dated architecture that is pretty much obsolete. For its day it was quick but compared to today's CNC's, it is going to be "slow" and clunky.

Depending on the Bridgeport VMC you're looking at, you'll have some with tach feedback DC servo's, some with AC servos and some with tachless DC servo's that use semi-custom amplifiers. ANYTHING custom or Bridgeport specific is probably going to be costly to service. Again, a lot if not most of the DX-32 service was taken over by EMI as part of an agreement between EMI and Hardinge/Bridgeport.

There are stories abounding where in guys swear by the Brideport VMC"s and stories where guys do nothing but swear at them. We went with V2XT's and Extraks because of the Bridgeport name. However, Bridgeport Machines is NOTHING more than a nameplate anymore. Not unike Desoto, Hudson and/or Rambler to the car industry. What used to be ain't no more.

At the time, we also bought the BPT stuff because of its cost and its performance potential/reputation. After having played with the hardware and some software tuning (as much as possible with "legacy" software) we'd rate the DX32 controller as "adequate" for basic CNC machining.

We do 2D work with ours and it performs flawlessly - after we took care of the poorly compromised hardware that BPT DIDN'T upgrade during their denouemont years. Yet, the neighbor's Haas easily outperforms our amp'd up machines and does so with EXACTLy the same tool paths.

We did find some of these poor compromises in our V2XT and, when time comes, we'll probably address them. Some of the compromises that BPT may/may not have been included in the 800 & 1000 VMC's.

Looking back at our decisions and overall development efforts, a better choice (all things considered) would surely have been to have selected a better machine to begin with. However, we didn't have the $$$ to do that so we got by with the BPT stuff. IT works, it was affordable, it is adequate, but it is NOT by any means contemporary and it is NOT as good as the name might repute.

If you can get hold of some of the "beta" versions of software that some of the service people out there got before BPT folded, you can get the machines to do some pretty amazing things. However, there are some VMC stories involving machines that work in fits and starts, machines that "never work" and machines that simply and reliably cut metal. Perhaps some owners/operators of 800, 1000 and TC"s with the DX-32 might chime in with their experiences.

However BEFORE I bought one, I'd pay someone to load and run a program on one that you plan to run. If it does what you want, it is a good buy. If not, see prior post about the possibility/probability of expecting someone to help you with a software fix.

If your program won't well or the machine has "issues" in executing the commands, never, EVER allow yourself to become hostage to a CNC machine that you can't get OEM factory software support from, ESPECIALLY if your livelihood depends on it.

Knowing what we know now, we'd probably have combined our purchase money and bought a Haas TM-1 instead of the Trak and XT. The TM-1 does pretty much all that a VMC would do in the same package space as a BPT mill (ala Extrak/V2Xt). Besides, it essentially is what a V2XT was meant to be had BPT done it RIGHT.

In retrospect, a TM-1 with a 4th axis would do pretty much ANYTHING we'd ever need and surely the 2D and 3D stuff that we currently send out for when we need stuff done real well.

[skydivebase]

I'm beginning to see things your way. I think we may have to wait and put the extra bucks into a new machine. I like the idea (as you say) to look for something that we can "SEE operate and get factory serviced (especially with software fixes)".

Problem is unfortunately (being an Australian company) we're not as spoilt for choice as in the US. Seems that there's plenty of nicely priced new and used equipment over there.

FWIW, we found out that the machine in question has a HEIDENHAIN TNC 370 CONTROLLER

[machintek]

The 1000 with the TNC was built in the UK, had a quick 1750 IPM rapid, all the algorithms were written very well that it did anything very well. The Siemens drives had Heidenhain logic boards on them to facilitate movement.
Absolutely wonderful machine.
I have installed one.
Make sure you can get service for it before buying. Very few people know it.
Nothing written about the DX32 controll applies to this machine.

George

[NC Cams]

Re: The Heidehnain controller - We have H's encoders and interface boxes on some of our inspection equipment. Some of the earlier hardware (vintage mid 90's) is NO LONGER SERVICED locally - any service MUST involve sending the whole board to Germany.

Before I'd buy it or even consider buying it, I'd call the local Heidenhain agency and see if they can/will still service the controller. If so, see if they're familiar with Bridgeports and any idiosyncracies they're willing to discuss. Some service guys will advise about issues that abound with said machines. If Heidenhain won't service the machine, I wouldn't touch it.

The last thing you want/need is to buy something that can't be fixed. As far as sofware issues go, if the controller had good software, it may be a good buy. IF there are issues and Heidenhain still services it, again good buy. If you get a "gee, I never heard of that" or a "blank stare" when you talk with Heidenhain, I'd go in a different direction.

Trying to find aftermarket service for proprietary soft and hardware is a major PITA. We learned that lesson with some like new Fanuc controlled lathes we got on a "great deal" some time ago. It took over a year to find someone who would/could fix them and we had ALL the factory documentation for them - Fanuc was clueless/helpless.

We ran into a similiar problem with some ISA based Heidenhain equipment we bought in the mid 90's. Absolutely NO local service and what service we could get takes 12 weeks minimum as the stuff has to go to Germany for repairs. We ended up buying some new surplus boards for half the cost of what it would cost to have ours fixed.

Tread cautiously when buying "legacy equipment". It may not be the deal it initially seems to be.

[taqarth]

Hi I have used similuar machines a lot for 3d and 2d work.

They are a little slow and can be ponderous on next move ( on drip or bucket feed from a pc in heidenhein ) though putting smoothing at the end of each line helps this a lot. ( m90 I think ;p )

If Time is not the major factor, I generally set them going and catch up on paperwork or manual machining, they are fine.

I have made lots of electrodes and mould tools on one's older than your VMC.

[gus]

I think your experience with inspection equipment does not transfer to cnc. Heidenhain,last I checked, supported and repaired cnc controls back to the 151.
Addionally, the MTBF on these controls is so much higher than most anything I have heard of, that you likely won't need much in the way of control service.

The last control I had serviced was a late 90's tnc310, and it was done on an exchange, overnight delivery.

[NC Cams]

The point being: when/if you buy used "legacy" equipment, CHECK TO SEE WITH THE MANUFACTURER as to whether or not service is still being offered.

After running into "sorry, no longer service" from any number of equipment suppliers in my lifetime, I'm merely providing "advice" learned from buying "good equipment" from name brand, highly reputed suppliers (IE: Bridgeport, Fanuc and Sunnen to name just a few) who NO LONGER support what had once been very popular equipment that I now have the semi-misfortune to own.

i also know of some other VERY high end CNC equipment used in my industry that was supplied new in the mid/late 90's that is still serviced by the OEM, providing you pay an ungodly sum to upgrade the controller to the latest computer system.

If you bought a machine new in '95 and mothballed it (I know of just such a case where this happened), the "new" machine is essentially unserviceable as the OEM no longer support the "outdated" albeit essentially unused hardware. The new owner didn't know this and now has a very high priced science project that he's stuck with for this very reason.

Personal experiences shared via message boards are quite beneficial. However, when it comes to buying a high dollar used CNC whatever, eventually, on-site service will be eventually needed. It never hurts to know BEFOREHAND as to whether or not you can get factory service for the device.

When the machine is down and you GOT to get stuff out, that is a poor time to learn that you have an albatross that you can't get serviced or have to pay a king's randsome to get back up and operational.

Forewarned is forearmed.

[XLR84x4]

I'm Jason, Jeremys business partner.

I really appreciate the feed back from you all about this machine we are interested in.

We have spoke to Heinaman today and they still support this controller. We also spoke to the agency that sold and serviced the machine. The feedback has been positve. This machine does have siemans controllers and the service agency spoke highly of this combination and the machine we are looking at.

I have been reading as many posts as possible regarding machining and I have one last question about the controller being able to handle large packets of code.

tagarth mentioned drip feeding code. Does this mean there are limits to the amount of lines the controller is able to handle. If so does this require a PC and software to feed the controller bundled code. Is this process automated with software?

What I imagine is the vmc machines 1000 lines of code for example and pauses whilst some software deposits the next 1000 lines etc. Am I on the correct train of thought, if so other than understandable time losses for this process what other problems may arrise?

Thank you again for your responses and I hope to be able to contribute to this form also as our experiences with our new machine grows.


Jason