BRIDGEPORT Torque-Cut 22

[tpmx57]

Can anyone provide some info on the BRIDGEPORT Torque-Cut 22?
I am looking into purchasing 1 and would like to know what to look out for and any downfalls with this mill.
I need a machine with a toolchanger and other than a little shorter on x travel than I would like it fits my needs well.
Just don,t want to buy it than find out they were troublesome machines.
Also what price range should it be in?
Thanks

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[NC Cams]

The Torquecuts were fitted with the BMDC control system. This was a DOS based system that came out in the mid 90s. IT was adequate in its day but is no longer state of the art. The ONLY place that services the BMDC card and software is EMI. IT is NOT cheap to service. Most of the computer stuff can be DIY serviced but the cards that operate the subsystems are NOT sold outright anymore and again, EMI is your sole source of service. If you lose teh PC system that runs DOS you can either dumpster dive for parts or call EMI>

There are some field techs out there who can service and tune the machines - as it is AC OR DC servo based some tuning is/will be necessary for optimum performance. However, as the machine came out during the last years when Bridgeport is/was in business, they may be few and far between. BPT Macines in/near CHicago is one guy who does know the machines and the BMDC system.

I got enticed into the use of the BMDC system due to its DOS base and DIY serviceability. HOwever, since the system is a legacy deal and no longer upgradeable, software wise, it is pretty much WYSIWYG - what you see is what you get.

The machine will do good work. IT is fairly robust. Any hard part service items or upgrades will have to be found on the used or legacy market - PCBs are all pretty much exchange so don't expect someone to come in an plug and play a repair. THis could leave you down for weeks. If the price is right - seen them go for as little as $14K - that may be enticing. Essentially guys swear by and at them. 4th axis are available but that depends if you have AC or DC servo type machine. I looked for nearly a year to find mine.

I bought into the BMDC due to the purchase of an EXTRAK. It does everything I need to do and does so well. With some trick parts added to the ball screws, the thing is deadly accurate. It was, however a POS until BPT Machine tuned it for me. Again, the TC is the same controller but in a bigger, better box of hardware.

I then bought a V2XT. It has pretty much sat due to health issues but it can be tuned up like the EZTRAK as it is essentially the same machine save for more precise Z axis drive. Again it has the bmdc - the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

After reviewing my situation, however, I wouldn't do it again. Yes to the EZTRAK, but I'd go with HAAS for the tool room mill. Much better controller and way better hardware in their TM1. Same controller is used in their VMC' which is what you're talking about in the TC. If you value service, Haas will service the VMC's, You may be hard pressed to get similar service for the TC.

TC is NOT a bad machine. HOwever there are better ones that won't have you pulling your hair out if/when it goes down.

[tpmx57]

Do you think or have you seen any kind of retrofit for this sytem?
Maybe new drives using the original servos.
I did some looking but didn,t find much about that .
Maybe getting the tool changer to work would be a problem with the aftermarket softwares like Mach 3.
I have a chance to get one locally for way under $10,000.
The Hass is perfect,I have ran them at a shop I worked at but the price
is out of my range for where I am right now.
I have a series ii cnc running mach 3 that I work the heck out of but i could get out alot more work with a machine with a tool changer.
I shy away from some work right now because I would have to stay at the machine too much doing tool changes.
The time the mill is running is best spent doing other work.
With the economy the way it is now I am just getting a backup plan in order to fall back on if I have to.
I worked at a tool and die shop running cnc machines for 25 years,I thought I was good there to retire,the next thing you know they went out of business and I had to find another job.
I got a alot of experience and need to capitalize on that.
Besides I do actually enjoy machine work,doesnt seem like a job,almost like a hobby.
I will have to give the TC 22 more thought,can,t afford to buy it than look at it broke down for much time.
Thank you for your time answering.

[mactec54]

Hi tpmx57

Is the machine you are looking at a Torque-cut 22 or a TC 22 they are different the Torque-cut 22 has DC motors & the TC 22 has AC motors

[NC Cams]

Whether the machine has AC or DC servos, the controller and support wiring upstream of the servo amps is essentially the same, namely BMDC. This was Bridgeports attempt at doing a PC based CNC system. The same controller ran lathes, mills, VMC and even a surface grinder. At the time, it was visionary and fit in with the modular trend to do things with PC"s. ONce you come to understnad the system, you can conclude that the system would make a darn good aftermarket retrofit deal - especially now with the DIY market as computer literate as it might be.

IN some instance, the software was quite adequate, in others it turned out to be less than optimized. My EZTRAK runs fine. Havent run the X2XT yet. Reports are that the VMC's ran OK but some found it lacking for mold work. Seems that 2D work is easy but when you go to simultaneous motion 3D. things get a bit more complicated. Reports are that the BMDC Romy lathes with the BMDC run fine.

From what I know, some of the VMC problems were software related as some "inn house" beta software worked far superour to the stuff that got released. Do a google search for "Bridgeport Lawsuit" and if you look , you can see some of the briefs filed on the less than stellar running vmc's. I dunno if the TC was involved in this but it is the same controller, albeit with different software. Apparently in house politics kept the released stuff out there as that was the party line that couldn't be deviated from.

When BPT went bust, all development stopped. The guys who did it left and eventually formed EMI. Although they might have been able to do upgrades, a "rights" issue arose with the folks who acquired the assets to BPT and that pretty much ended that. There is surely more to the story than that but at this point in time, WYSIWYG.

I've been able to get copies of pretty much all the schematics for the various devices that were controlled by the BMDC. Sadly, the Torque Cut and TC22 were not as easy to get as I never got them. THis much I do know - whereas you can replace some servo amps in other machines with aftermarket devices, the TC's use special pulse width modulated drives that were made EXCLUSIVELY by BPT. Again, you're pretty much screwed into having yours repaired by EMI or some other aftermarket house should something go awry.

You mention update or retrofit. IT would seem that by the time you get done with the cost and labor to retrofit a VMC, you'd have less time and money in a Haas. Besides are you looking for a mill/vmc or a science project? You'd almost think that in this time of financial distress that some Haas machines might become available. Buy the TC if you can afford it but do so with an open eye. There are not people walking the streets who know the machine and/or its control system. EMI will be one of, if not your ONLY source for component service. IF the software that comes with the machine won't do what you want/need, you are not going to find upgrade options AFIK.

Again, the machine does work and work well. Guys love them. I found the BMDC to be a quite charming controller with a lot of potential. Sadly, however, the folks who designed and developed it got roadblocked once BPT went bust and Hardinge acquired the rights to the BPT assets. Alas the full potential of the BMDC would/could never be fully realized. Besides, the developing parties are/were to OEM Focused to see the aftermarket potential for the BMDC machine. Tis truly too bad they didn't.

The way I see it, the BMDC based whatevers are legacy devices frozen in time and EMI is pretty much, in my opinion, dedicated to merely servicing (fixing) BMDC hardware as opposed to supporting it with new software and/or other advances to the animal. Again, this is based on conversations I had with people who KNEW the full/real story about what went on.

As far as tool changers go, BMDC does support them. I"d be inclined to say forget retrofitting them as it is not an easy thing to do and some of the documentation and software that supports it is hard to get. Again, if you uncover a glitch that is software related, you have pretty much no hope of getting it fixed/resolved. If you want a tool changer on your machine, BUY IT THAT WAY. Again, this is where Haas needs to be considered. FWIW, my neighbor has 5 Haas machines. They all have ATC's. ONce he sets up the machines, he can run all 5 by himself.

Life is too short to mess with science projects unless you have the time and the money to do so. From your post, I don't get the impression that you do.

[mactec54]

Hi NC cams

Welcome back a great write up as always The drives for the TC 22 are not custom & are standard Yaskawa drives you just need to know what codes to turn on in the drives the AC servo motors are also standard nothing custom about motors or drives The motors & drives are not made now but can be replaced with drives & motors of the same sizes from Yaskawa the drives can also be repaired as well
The control was the only weak link to this machine & as you have said not to good for any 3D stuff but ok for 2D work which is most of what shops do any way
It is a great shame that the control was not developed more as the later controls are quite good & as good as most lower priced machines out there now

[NC Cams]

Thanks mactec54 - times have been trying of late but I'm surviving, literally.

The TC22 has Ac drives and can be serviced as you say. However, the Torque Cut has DC drives and there is the catch.

BPT used a special, in house drive system on this machine that eliminated tach feedback to the BMDC. THis was done to reduce build cost and, I say, to make the client TOTALLY dependant on BPT for service. From what I've been able to determine, the Torque CUts rely on PWM to drive the servos. THey convert the normal +/-10 analog signal at the BMDC (which any aftermarket amp could use) to a PWM signal via a special, and undocumented PWM card. THis 2 wire signal is then fed to a BPT created servo amp to drive the DC servos. You can replace the servos with one of comparable size and not use any tach they have but your'e stuck with the BPT unique servo amps.

THis is fine and good if BPT was still in business but now that they are bust, Hardinge ain't doing anything to support them and EMI is your only hope. I found in talking with one of the principals of EMI that the guy was helpful, willing to share info and an all around good guy. The next time I called, I got hold of a sales guy and this henchman wouldn't let me talk to the principal anymore, at least not until/unless i handed over a credit cared for a hefty per hour sum.

Face it, EMI is holding owners of the legacy BMDC based system hostage anymore. Everybody who had anything to do/know about the legacy BPT stuff is stripping the meat from the bones of these legacy, obsolete, unsupported systems. I'd hate to see someone else buy into that dead end scenario, especially when/if they are going to rely on it for their livelihood.

I know of a situation where better software for the various BPT VMC"s was created, loaded and ran. It ran circles around the OEM stuff that was realeased. INternal politics prevented its release as BPT was in litigation ove the alleged "defective BMDC" at the time. The release of "good" software would surely have been detrimental to BPT had they done so at the time - a class action lawsuit was in play at teh ttime alleging that the BMDC was defective.

From wha I see/know, The BMDC works and works well - we proved so with our cam lobe milling software whrein we have it milint to 0.0001" levels albeit in a well tuned up Extrak. IF we can do it without knowledge of the source code, imagine what BPT could have doe with it WITH the soruce code. In light of the above comments about the VMC code, it was the software where the soft underbelly is/was.

The way I see it, Hardinge Bought the assets so as to get rights to the Birdgeport mill. PERIOD> They had no desire to support the BPT VMC's. WHy? They had their own machining centers to sell and you don't need BPT's OS when you have your own - all you need is the "name" and that they got when they bought the rights to Bridgeport Machines. Besides, if the BPT VMC"s can't be serviced, it is easier to sell their "Bridgeport" VMC, right? .

THis still doesn,t make the TC's, either AC or DC less functional as a machine. HOwever, anyone who buys won should know the circumstances/back story that they may face when it comes to servicing or using them. If I need BMDC service, I have to fix it myself. If I need help, the only guy I know who KNOWS how to fix them is 2-3 states away and I'm in for a HEALTHY service bill just to get him here. Realistic, yes, best way to run a business, no.

My neighbor calls Haas, rarely I might add, and the guy is there that afternoon or the next morning and stuff is usually fixed in a plug and play fashion. You can't make money if you have to start a new science project when/if you machine goes down.

If you intend to buy the TC, AC or DC, caveat emptor is all that I'm saying.

[tpmx57]

Thanks all for the info.
This machine is a Torgue cut-22
I am not looking for a machine to make a living from.
I just do alot of work for the company I work for in the evenings.
The company I work for is building a brand new facility to do all their machine work in house.
Right now all machine work is being subbed out to various shops.
We have purchased 5 new G&L's for the new shop and that is just a start.
We have 2 G&L 170,s,2 G&L 1250,s and a G&L 5000 .
We were up at G&L a couple months ago for the final buy off and seen the machines ran through the paces.
They are sitting now in storage awaiting the new buildings completion.
I have a Bridgeport Series II now that gets the work done for me but without a toolchanger and rigid tapping I stay away from alot of work I could get.
I wouldn,t have a problem spending $25-$35,000 for a Hass or whatever but that would force me to spend ALL my time running it just to get it paid for.
The way it is now I still have a life and can just shut the door and not worry about the shop.
I guess right now it is more of a hobby than anything else ,I like the extra money it brings in for toys and such.
I am the first machinist hired at the company I am at and since have got 3 other guys that were excellent machinists from the shop I worked at 25 years ,I don,t plan on leaving were I am at but i didn,t plan on leaving the last place either.
I just like to have a backup plan in case i need it.
I own TOP PERFORMANCE RACING and do work on Dirtbike and Atvs also.
Just the way the economy is anymore you just never know.
I am going to think a couple more days on the BP TC22.
The asking price on the it is $7000,maybe I will make a offer and see if it flys.
Either way thanks for your time posting.
Still open to further ideas
When I mentioned a retrofit I was talking more of stripping the entire machine of all its drives and servo and putting on something else,the only place that I see would be difficult would be software to handle the tool changer.
I have done a little design witha system by converting a Smithy machine over to cnc,it was featured in one of there magazines a while back.About the same time they were building the first cnc mill.

[NC Cams]

IF the machine has a tool changer already integrated, that is a positive. If not, retrofitting one could be tough in lieu of the software issues already discussed. $7k is a good price as compared to the $13k I paid for an extrak and the the $12k I paid for a pristine V2XT.

Prepare for your employer's outside work to dry up if/when they get the GL stuff. IF you have a dirt bike side business, perhaps that will pan out enough to make the transition from doing work for employer to working for yourself. Had I found a TC for 7K, I'd probably have jumped for it as well.

IF you do buy it, make sure it has ALL the documentation, ALL the backup disks and all the other incidentals that went with its original purchase. NOthing worse that to have to buy documentation and/or B/U disks after the fact. Again, this stuff SHOULD be available from EMI but I'd check first. YOU should be able to negotiate any dollars spent for B/U software and documentation from the seller if it is not available. The machine is a PITA lump without it.

Try to find out it had any major crashes. These tend to rear up spindles big time. have it run thru some tests as noted above as well as some others. There is an exercise program that is part of the factory software that needs to be run at start up to warm up the machine prior to cutting. Make sure they do it before they impress you with a cold machine.

You now have more info than I had before I bought my BPT machines. Go forth and prosper.

[tpmx57]

The machine does have a tool changer on already.
My thought was if a retrofit was possible could the tool changer be functional also.
I am waiting on a response as to whether the manual and back-up cd is available.
That is not looking very promising.
Can manuals and disks still be had.
I have all the manuals for my other machine and they are a necessity.
Let you know what happens.

[NC Cams]

Re manuals, B/U disks and.or schematics - call EMI. They probably will NOT be cheap and it they don't have time, you may be hard pressed to get copies..

One more thing. See if it has a PC running it or a CIB (computer in a box) PC based machines are self serviceable, CIB's are not.

An axquaintance who has a cib machine regrest the fact that he has the CIB as opposed to the CIB. Besides, the tool changer puts you into a whole new level of complexity when it comes to service and or retofit.

[tpmx57]

This is from the seller, DOS-Based, PC-Compatible, 32-Bit
Does this tell if its pc based for sure or could still be CIB?
The seller claims BR tech did a run thru on the machine and found no problems.
Where would they have found TEchs to inspect the mill?
Thanks

[NC Cams]

The BMDC DX32 software will run on a PC or PC compatible computers. The CIB was a PC based custom built "computer in a box' that ran the DX32 software - the BMDC card was the card that was a machine controller card taht plugged into an ISA slot in the PC MB that they usd in the mid 903s to build some machiens. CIB's used there own BMDC card as I recall - sor of the same but unique in its own regard.

CIB ain't a PC though it runs PC compatible software, it is a computer in a box. Should it crash/go wrong, it is usually/probably NOT self serviceable as if it were a PC. EMI is the only place I know of where it can be serviced if it can be serviced at all anymore.

IF it were a PC as opposed to CIB you could literally dumpster dive to get a PC MB, install it and be back running. The CIB's require sending it out for service and EMI is pretty much the only place I know of where that is doable. I don't think you can retrofit a PC MB into a machine that has a CIB.

There are/were a number of factory trained exBridgeport field employees who know/knew the DX32, BMDC based system WHere they are and how to find them is the issue. In their day, they literally carried around DX32 boards (there are several external cards besides the BMDC main card) which they could plug an play to fix the machine. Again, that is not the case anymore.

As long as the machine is working OK, it should be relatively free of problems. Get a power surge, short a wire, do something dumb (lke that can't happen) and you could have problems that can/will take down the DX32, BMDC system. THATS when your real problems set in.

How do I know? It happened to me which is how and when I took the time to learn what I know about the DX32 BMDC machine control system.

[hansdie]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that "CIB" (Computer in box) actually were made by Heidenhain with Bridgeport software loaded, similar to the new Anilam controllers.

[NC Cams]

CIB is/was NOT a Heidenhain product.

As I recall another former BPT employee who left and started a computer company called Computer Express was the creator of the jewel. I think CE is still in business, I dunno if they service the CIB anymore. AFIK, Heidenhain came on later with the so called "Bridgeport VMC's" that were produced by Hardinge under the Bridgeport name after Hardinge acquired rights to the use of Bridgeport as a product/name/technological entity etc. .

Most of the creators/developers of the BMDC DX32 system are now employees/principals of EMI. They worked at Bridgeport Machines Controls Division at the time the PC Based DX32 was concieved/developed. They supposedly left en masse at or around or slightly before BPT ceased operations back in the late 90's/early 2000 time frame. Whatever happened after that is irrelevant to this discussion.

Suffice it to say, as a result of what happened, pretty much the exclusive supplier of BMDC DX32 hard parts service items is EMI. What they can/will/are permitted to do is supposedly controlled by the rights arrangement that they acquire when they took over the rights to DX32/BMDC from Hardinge. This is why, IMHO, WYSIWYG pertains to what exists for the BMDC DX32 computer system/softwrae package from EMI.

Summary: DX32 works well and is a legacy system. WYSIWYG as far as software development goes for anythikng the uses DX32 technology. THe TC that you're looking at is probably a good value for the price. Make sure you get ALL the back up disks and documentation as it may or may not be easy to get anymore. EMI is/will be your major/perhaps only hope for DX32 support shoud you buy the machine and it needs service.

Service techs who know DX32 are out there but you'll have to find them. BPT Machines near Chicago and Machinetec here on the CNCXone are two service tech's who know the machine. Thre is also a tech who frequents the Practical Machinist message board. THe machine would make a GREAT hobby machine but might be a dated lump when or if it came to something you'd need to rely on for production 24/7.

Aside from some other tech and political stuff that I can't won't share, you now know as much as you really need to know about the viability of the TC when it comes to service and/or your particular purchase situation. YOu have WAY more info that I had when I bought into the DX32 powered mill that I bought oh so many years ago.

Caveat emptor. .

Pursuant to discussions I had with an Anilam enginer, their controller is essentially a DOS machine that is setup to run Anilam software. You can say what you want about DOS but one thing is for sure, it doesn't crash like Windoze and it is a wonderful O/S for machine too[ stuff that doesn't have to do multitasking - FWIK as a result of my experiences with DX32 and BMDC, 3D motion is not multtasking and can be effectively achieved with a well designed controller card and properly written software in DOS - both Anilam and Bridgeport did it only BPT didn't/couldn't/ wasn't able to release the software for real time use. Go figure..

[MetalicGlow]

I have a Torq-cut 22. Bought it in 2002. If you can buy a good machine for $7K, then I don't believe it. I think I saw the same one you are considering on eBay. If you research others that sold, they went for 12K-20K or so. For 7K, given that it is being offered by a machinery dealer, it is my opinion that there are undisclosed problems that will cost a pile of money to fix. Otherwise, why not make DOUBLE if it really is a good machine? This machine, as it is being offered in the description, based on what you have told me, this unit should AT LEAST be offered for DOUBLE what they are asking.

The photos tell me this is a well used machine but without being there in person to see everything (about 100+ things) up close and personal, I would not accept this machine even for 7K. I would invest the money in transportation/accommodations to inspect it in person, preferably with an experienced tech in tow. Something is up. It could be that rancid coolant ravaged everything in the cabinet interior, or many other things.

If you decide to buy, forget about installation disks and manuals. You can get all of that from other forumites here. Make DAMN sure you get a good working backup of your parameter files. That is what can make or break your machine. If you lose that info, you might have to have a BP tech from EMI visit your machine to reset and calibrate everything all over again - now we are talking BIG MONEY.

I have had my TC22 in service for 6 years now. I love it even though the DX32 control will crash occasionally, or do some weird things (random features?). It is very accurate and dependable. I was thinking of selling my unit in the near future for around 20K since it has been kept squeaky clean and meticulously maintained - that includes about 5K in tool holders, double vises, etc... I am not retired yet, so I am hanging on to it for now.

7K for the unit you found is either the deal of the century, or the worst deal of the century.

[tpmx57]

Thanks for the time you have donated to get me up to speed on the machine.
I finally got to talk to someone at the sales dept where the machine is located.
They have the installation manual,service and programming manuals for the machine with the software back-up copies.
the machine was gone over by a tech from bridgeport and they have a copy of his tests on the mill.
He supposedly found no issues with the Mill.
I am going there Monday to see the machine run and if satisfied I am going to bring it home.
Hope it works out for me ok.
Right now I just need something to do some drilling and tapping on to make
50 small manifolds on.
There is lots of this small work right now where I am at and this stuff won,t dry up for a long time even with the new machine shop up and running.
I have a couple pictures I am going to attach and I am hoping we can tell if its the CIB or other PC.
THANKS

[tpmx57]

For what its worth when I first called about the mill I was told it was listed for$14,000.00.
When I asked why it was listed on Ebay for$7000 they put me on hold then told me they would have to call back.
When they returned the call they claimed the auction was not correctly listed,the auction was suppose to be a starting bid of $7.000 not a BUY IT NOW of $7000.
They said they would honor the auction and sell for the listed amount.
I see they have cancelled the auction now as they said they were going to.
Like I said I am headed over Monday to see the machine and see it run.
Like I say for what its worth thats the story,they are salesman so who knows.

[machintek]

I do not see a CIB.
By the way, I still am a Bridgeport service technician, even though we are no longer the dealer. Now we sell Doosan/Daewoo and Milltronics (among other machine tool lines).

George

[tpmx57]

Hello George,
You helped me alot when I first bought my BP series II cnc.
That mill gave me fits when I first got it.
Someone had jumped and bypassed relays and it took alot of time getting it running again.
I had it running well with the Boss6 but finally threw on one of Hillbillies BOB and now run it with Mach3.
It has made me alot of money and the only problem is blowing a transitter now and then when I screw up and have to e-stop it.
Being a BP tech what is your opinion of the Torq-Cut machines?
It is in the back of my mine to just stay away from them and get something else.
You say you don,t think this is the CIB?
I don,t know enough to know what to even look for.
Thanks George
This site is alot of help for guys in my situation and you guys taking the time to help is really appreciated