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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    My software is pretty much full featured. At present it supports most of the common canned cycles and G/M codes, as well as full 4 axis profiling. 6 axis control is in the planning stages. It also supports open and closed loop steppers, hybrid steppers, and full closed loop servo systems, in any combination.

    The reason I wrote the software in the first place was due to some bad experience with a Mach3/Galil installation. The speed and accuracy was not up to industrial standards, so I just wrote my own software to solve the problem and make the customer happy.
    I think many have had that bad experience, we even had there top software guy writing plugin's to try and over come those problems, after a month of many changes he gave up also

    That sounds good if you can get the system up and running for the end user, with out the Galil learning curve, working off the scales sounds good also, are you not doing dual feed back, that's how it's done to have the best benefit, of the 2 Encoders per axes

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    I think many have had that bad experience, we even had there top software guy writing plugin's to try and over come those problems, after a month of many changes he gave up also

    That sounds good if you can get the system up and running for the end user, with out the Galil learning curve, working off the scales sounds good also, are you not doing dual feed back, that's how it's done to have the best benefit, of the 2 Encoders per axes

    There is virtually no Galil learning curve required. I supply the DMC software and configuration. All the end user has to do is load the software into the Galil controller and it's ready to run. Takes a couple of minutes over the phone, or I can port in using remote desktop. All of the motor tuning can be done from my software UI.

    With the main encoder on the load, a dual loop system is not required for servo motors. Most servo drives require feedback from the motor for speed control, tach or encoder/resolver, so you have to have the encoder connected to the drive, but that encoder does not need to be connected to the controller. If using open loop steppers, then putting the encoder on the load corrects the position at the end of the move. Not the best, but it works. I did write some code that continuously looks at the stepper position and compares it to the actual target position and corrects on-the-fly as needed. It seems to work, but has not been tested in actual production.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Scored a Hoffman 30x20x10 enclosure for $120 that just arrived today. Also ordered $300 worth of small parts from automation direct that brought the remaining shopping list down to just a few items. Have a few questions about the things that are left to purchase:

    Jim you said you can use 1 limit switch per axis, but in the DMC 40x0 manual it sounds like you really need 2. Obviously you've installed this and have it working already so do you just wire it to FWD and it will still let you go the opposite way when you actually hit reverse? For some reason I'm getting the idea if you use one wired to forward, when you hit going the other way it still wants you to go REV to get off of it...?

    "The forward limit switch (FLSx) inhibits motion in the forward direction immediately upon activation of the switch.
    The reverse limit switch (RLSx) inhibits motion in the reverse direction immediately upon activation of the switch.
    If a limit switch is activated during motion, the controller will make a decelerated stop using the deceleration rate
    previously set with the SD command. The motor will remain on (in a servo state) after the limit switch has been
    activated and will hold motor position. The controller can be configured to disable the axis upon the activation of a
    limit switch, see the OE command in the command reference for further detail."

    We touched on the amp enable earlier as well but I'm still kinda stuck on that too... It sounds like the controller uses amp enable to stop movement during a whole bunch of circumstances. I'm assuming you wrote specific code to do the same things on the outputs that you wired to turn on the amps? I think i figured out how to wire the DMM drives to the galil amp enable optoisolated circuit. It doesnt look like they are able to be set to default enabled on power up. It says in that manual:

    "Pin No. Symbol Details I/O Interface Circuit
    15 ENA
    - Servo enable/disable input
    - Active Low (servo disabled when low)
    - Motor coasts when servo disabled (shaft free)
    - Disable clears all pulse/analog commands
    - Disable clears all position calculation and error
    Input A

    Re-reading that now makes me think you could just wire the +14V internal power from the drive to the input and then it would be enabled all the time huh?

    And a final point on home switches or the lack thereof.. I wont use this machine not even close to everyday, I figured having a way to home the machine would keep you from loosing your g54 offsets. When you power down the controller its not going to remember its last spot and even if it did and got moved somehow in between, everything would be out the window? Am i getting too crazy here? I found some euchner limits that have multiple plungers per block, so you could have a home/FWD/REV all in 1 switch.

    Best way to wire E-stop is on the enable or to actually cut the AC input lines to the drive? As always, thanks a bunch for your expertise!!



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Quote Originally Posted by sohcpwr View Post
    Scored a Hoffman 30x20x10 enclosure for $120 that just arrived today. Also ordered $300 worth of small parts from automation direct that brought the remaining shopping list down to just a few items. Have a few questions about the things that are left to purchase:
    Sounds like it's about time to get some schematics drawn up. PM your email address so we can open that channel. I'm going to need the documentation for your drives and your parts list. Does your DMC 40x0 have high power (24V) outputs installed? That is an option. If not we'll have to add some 5V relays to the system. I found some nice ones on Ebay for about $5 each.

    Jim you said you can use 1 limit switch per axis, but in the DMC 40x0 manual it sounds like you really need 2. Obviously you've installed this and have it working already so do you just wire it to FWD and it will still let you go the opposite way when you actually hit reverse? For some reason I'm getting the idea if you use one wired to forward, when you hit going the other way it still wants you to go REV to get off of it...?

    "The forward limit switch (FLSx) inhibits motion in the forward direction immediately upon activation of the switch.
    The reverse limit switch (RLSx) inhibits motion in the reverse direction immediately upon activation of the switch.
    If a limit switch is activated during motion, the controller will make a decelerated stop using the deceleration rate
    previously set with the SD command. The motor will remain on (in a servo state) after the limit switch has been
    activated and will hold motor position. The controller can be configured to disable the axis upon the activation of a
    limit switch, see the OE command in the command reference for further detail."
    There are a few different ways to set up the limit switches. If it is easy to move the axis manually then a single switch works well because you can move the axis off of the limit switch. Hitting a limit would have roughly the same effect as hitting the E-stop. If it is difficult to move the axis manually (no hand wheels) then the 2 switch system is better. Either way you would attach the switches to a stationary part, and operate the switch with a cam. For the X axis, the switches would be attached to the the saddle and the cams would be on the table, and for the Y axis, the switches would be attached to the knee, and the cams on the saddle. The cams normally have a ~15° ramp, you don't want to be set up where anything runs into the switch like a hard stop. The home switches, if used, operate the same way and can be placed anywhere. The actual home position is an offset from the physical switch, but I see no need for a home switch on a knee mill (well, maybe the Z axis, if you are using tool height offsets and have some kind of quick change system or a tool changer).

    You can set up the switches any way you want, and I'll just write the software to make it work.

    We touched on the amp enable earlier as well but I'm still kinda stuck on that too... It sounds like the controller uses amp enable to stop movement during a whole bunch of circumstances. I'm assuming you wrote specific code to do the same things on the outputs that you wired to turn on the amps? I think i figured out how to wire the DMM drives to the galil amp enable optoisolated circuit. It doesnt look like they are able to be set to default enabled on power up. It says in that manual:

    "Pin No. Symbol Details I/O Interface Circuit
    15 ENA
    - Servo enable/disable input
    - Active Low (servo disabled when low)
    - Motor coasts when servo disabled (shaft free)
    - Disable clears all pulse/analog commands
    - Disable clears all position calculation and error
    Input A

    Re-reading that now makes me think you could just wire the +14V internal power from the drive to the input and then it would be enabled all the time huh?
    If it's possible to have the drive enabled on power up that is my preference. If not, then it's easy to program in the enable on some program condition. The actual enable outputs can be directly controlled with the MO (Motor Off) and SH (Servo Here) commands programmatically.

    And a final point on home switches or the lack thereof.. I wont use this machine not even close to everyday, I figured having a way to home the machine would keep you from loosing your g54 offsets. When you power down the controller its not going to remember its last spot and even if it did and got moved somehow in between, everything would be out the window? Am i getting too crazy here? I found some euchner limits that have multiple plungers per block, so you could have a home/FWD/REV all in 1 switch.
    I almost never power down my machine but I do get somewhat frequent power fails out here in the country so if I have a job on the table I park the machine at a known location when quitting for the day, this is done with a single button click that moves the machine to the parking position that you set for the particular job. My thinking on homing is that it is not needed, my 0,0,0 is always set relative to the part or fixture coordinates, not the machine. In my software it's a single button click to set 0, which can be anywhere you choose. G54 offsets just add another layer of confusion to the mix. All of this comes from about 45 years of operating manual machines. About 5 years ago I couldn't even spell CNC.

    Best way to wire E-stop is on the enable or to actually cut the AC input lines to the drive? As always, thanks a bunch for your expertise!!
    On E-stop it's my preference to cut AC power to the servos and anything else that can move. The operation sequence is to pull out the E-stop, then press the servo enable button to power up the system. The E-stop system is all done outside of the controller with appropriate contactors and relays. The controller only monitors the E-stop condition. The servo enable button is connected to the controller and certain conditions must be satisfied before the system is allowed to be enabled.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Move the axis manually to get off the limit switch... somehow I forgot it was still gonna be a manual capable machine after all this. I knew I had to be missing something, sounds like a single limit will work for me.

    For ease of getting things setup, I think I can forgo the home switches for now and see how that works. I'll try and get limit switches with 2 plungers in case I feel the need to add them later. When you park it and shut it off, I guess you could write down how far from your zero is and check if anything moved while it wasnt under power? Z axis dropping from gravity has me a little concerned. I was thinking of getting the tormach tool holders to not have to measure each tool length everytime you switch out

    Sounds like it's about time to get some schematics drawn up. PM your email address so we can open that channel. I'm going to need the documentation for your drives and your parts list. Does your DMC 40x0 have high power (24V) outputs installed? That is an option. If not we'll have to add some 5V relays to the system. I found some nice ones on Ebay for about $5 each.
    I'll have to check on this, I thought i remembered reading in the manual that there were opto outputs that you could use an isolated power supply of whatever voltage you wanted up to 24v. I do know the extended I/O is 3.3v if thats the set of outputs your talking about. You have my email already but ill send you another one with the crude schematic I have drawn up already to try and make sense of ;) What are the 5V relays your talking about for? I got this relay module with the controller, **edit** just looked up the spec sheet, the coils are 24v input and the load is rated for 250V ac

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-relay-module-jpg


    Some pics of Christmas morning:

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1199-jpg

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1207-jpg

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1192-jpg

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1203-jpg

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1197-jpg

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1196-jpg  
    Last edited by sohcpwr; 11-10-2017 at 01:36 AM.


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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Quote Originally Posted by sohcpwr View Post
    Move the axis manually to get off the limit switch... somehow I forgot it was still gonna be a manual capable machine after all this. I knew I had to be missing something, sounds like a single limit will work for me.

    For ease of getting things setup, I think I can forgo the home switches for now and see how that works. I'll try and get limit switches with 2 plungers in case I feel the need to add them later. When you park it and shut it off, I guess you could write down how far from your zero is and check if anything moved while it wasnt under power? Z axis dropping from gravity has me a little concerned. I was thinking of getting the tormach tool holders to not have to measure each tool length everytime you switch out
    It would be unlikely that the Z would drop when unpowered. I've never had mine move when E-stopped. As long as the controller has power it will read the encoder position so even if things moved you would still have the position. The only time you may lose position is if the Galil is powered off, the encoder power is supplied by the Galil.

    If you use the Tormach tooling system, then it would make sense to have a Z home limit.


    I'll have to check on this, I thought i remembered reading in the manual that there were opto outputs that you could use an isolated power supply of whatever voltage you wanted up to 24v. I do know the extended I/O is 3.3v if thats the set of outputs your talking about. You have my email already but ill send you another one with the crude schematic I have drawn up already to try and make sense of What are the 5V relays your talking about for? I got this relay module with the controller, think its 5V input
    After reviewing the manual, you are absolutely correct. That controller comes with the high power outputs standard. So good there, no additional relays required.

    That panel is looking good

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Most recent thing i have been studying is ground loops. Trying to avoid potential nightmare diagnostic issues later, admittedly I am a total electrical newb. I gather they can reek havoc with delicate analogue signals. What really has me stuck is proper grounding/bonding with a panel like this that has a metal backplate. So the backplate is grounded to earth from the subpanel in my garage but then each device in the panel (servo drives for example) also have a connection for ground on the chassis. Would you not use that in this instance? If you did you would have 2 different paths to ground correct? There was some stuff in the manual I also have to re-read about using a floating ground on the power supply to the controller. Sounded like it wants you to not connect the ground on the ac input to the 24v DC power supply. Does this sound wacky to you? Or what I'm guessing is that it does get connected, but is kept isolated from all the other grounds in the system somehow?

    Last edited by sohcpwr; 11-10-2017 at 02:15 AM.


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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    All of the grounds should be tied to a single point (ground lug) on the panel. If the servo drives have a ground lug, then that should also be tied to the panel ground lug. Do not daisy chain grounds together, each should have a wire going to the main ground lug.

    The floating ground on the 24V supply should be referring to the 0 volt (negative or common, whatever you want to call it). You would connect the ground on the AC side to the panel ground lug. Many times I also connect the DC 0 volt side to ground, but it depends on the power supply and the system.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Yup, that's how I envision wiring it up. The issue I'm thinking of is the ground lug will also end up grounding the backplate that the drives are mounted on. Unless you use plastic insulating washers or something of the sort, mounting the drives directly onto the backplate will complete the path to ground there too. Won't that create a loop?



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    You'll be fine without isolators. Mounting directly onto the panel is the normal way of doing it. Never heard of that causing a ground loop.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Quote Originally Posted by sohcpwr View Post
    Yup, that's how I envision wiring it up. The issue I'm thinking of is the ground lug will also end up grounding the backplate that the drives are mounted on. Unless you use plastic insulating washers or something of the sort, mounting the drives directly onto the backplate will complete the path to ground there too. Won't that create a loop?
    No you won't create a ground loop by mounting on you Grounded Back plane, everything that needs a Ground should go to a star point Ground post like photo, including you low voltage power supply Ground

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-gounding-post-case-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    would be the same thing as a row of ground terminal blocks which connect through the din rail to the grounded back plate?

    These are what I purchased: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ocks/KN-G12SP4

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-ground-terminal-block-jpg



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    I have done it that way with no problems. Just make sure to bond at least one of the terminals to the panel. On the panel connection, scrape away the paint on both sides and use a bolt & nut with star washers on both sides. I normally use a 1/4 inch bolt.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Quote Originally Posted by sohcpwr View Post
    would be the same thing as a row of ground terminal blocks which connect through the din rail to the grounded back plate?

    These are what I purchased: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ocks/KN-G12SP4

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-ground-terminal-block-jpg
    These terminal blocks work just the same, Just make sure the din rail is not mounted on a painted surface

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Finally got a saturday off work in addition to getting out "early" on friday night... gave me a chance to wake up before noon today and get crackin' mounting things in the enclosure and start wiring up some of the things I'm certain won't change. Before drilling and tapping any holes though, I figured i would look for some advise or approval of what I have laid out so far as this is the first real complicated panel I've ever built. As jim said earlier in the thread, you really never can have enough room in an electrical enclosure. I knew the other 30x30 one would have fit everything better, but I wouldn't have been able to mount it to the side of the machine which would have caused a bunch more problems. Anyway, onto it... Here are the pics of everything just resting in place:

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1211-jpg

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1213-jpg

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1215-jpg

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1217-jpg



    Since the servo drives don't have all the room requested in the manuals, I am considering mounting the Galil like this:

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1220-jpg

    Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1221-jpg

    It really only frees up a couple of inches and would also cause a few issues with cooling fan placement. I was planning on 1 or 2 fans on the bottom sucking in, and 1 or 2 up top blowing out.

    So my questions are: Are there any issues with component placement you see? I read a industrial controls wiring document last night that pointed out some best practices for building a panel. Some of the things i remember were to have the power wires and signal wires as far apart as possible. I wanted to put another cable track down the door hinge side for signal wires but ended up needing that extra 1.25". Can the power supplies be that close to the motion controller or servo drives? I'm also thinking about mounting the noise filters (top left, next to the row of fuse blocks) on the side wall of the enclosure to save some more room. I have seen other people mount stuff to the sides, how do you do that without drilling and tapping into the wall of the enclosure? I don't imagine thats good practice... Can you put a cable track in the space between the backplate and the side wall? It wouldn't look too professional but would help with the above mentioned situation. Thanks for looking!



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Why not mount the Galil on the door? That will give room to mount the contactors for the servo drives and also allow the ventilation fan mounting. Just run the wiring like this:

    Just bring the wiring down in a loop so it has some flex and can move with the door. Wrapped in plastic spiral wrap in the loop. Picture of the rotary phase converter I'm building to run my CNC lathe. Just finished the panel today.


    Power supplies next to the servo drives are fine.

    It's not the best practice to mount stuff to the side wall but you are not building a commercial panel, so go for it. I wouldn't send one out like that, but I would do it (have done it) for my own shop equipment. When the customer is paying for a new cabinet, I make sure to buy one big enough to fit everything on the back panel with room for ''future expansion'', but when I'm building for myself, I use what I got. And yes, you could put the cable track (wireway) wherever it will fit. Normally you mount stuff on the sidewall with screws and nuts, the metal is not really thick enough to tap. I have also used sheet metal screws for mounting stuff on the outside of the cabinet. But that is a really bad practice, you wind up with sharp pointy things sticking inside of the cabinet. Just make sure you don't have any wires in running in that area.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise-img_1766-jpg  
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Yea I didn't really wanna mount anything on an exterior panel due to the nuts/bolts sticking through. Another option I was thinking of since the cabinet is so deep is to just mount the controller on a second level "shelf" of sorts. Maybe with a hinge or something so it could swing out of the way to get to the stuff underneath.

    I also don't think I'm gonna need the 24v relay module. I put it in there as a placeholder of sorts. The room it takes up could then be used for something else.

    Can you elaborate on the circuit of contactors for the drives? And other than the aforementioned contactors, is there anything else you see I'm missing? I'd like to get everything mounted this weekend but I'm hesitant to do so until I know I have all the devices in there



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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Quote Originally Posted by sohcpwr View Post
    Yea I didn't really wanna mount anything on an exterior panel due to the nuts/bolts sticking through. Another option I was thinking of since the cabinet is so deep is to just mount the controller on a second level "shelf" of sorts. Maybe with a hinge or something so it could swing out of the way to get to the stuff underneath.
    That is a very common way of mounting devices in panels as long as you have enough depth. I use pop rivets to mount DIN rail and wireway to cabinet faces. Very unobtrusive, just use a washer on the other side.

    I also don't think I'm gonna need the 24v relay module. I put it in there as a placeholder of sorts. The room it takes up could then be used for something else.
    You may be correct. Depends on what you want to add later.

    Can you elaborate on the circuit of contactors for the drives? And other than the aforementioned contactors, is there anything else you see I'm missing? I'd like to get everything mounted this weekend but I'm hesitant to do so until I know I have all the devices in there
    The contactors are really part of the E-stop system. When you hit the E-stop, you want the drives to power down. You might be able to use one contactor for all 3 drives, like this guy: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...AD-PR40-2A-24D

    Then wire the fuses for the individual drives after the contactor. Contactor is just a fancy name for a really heavy duty relay, normally used for motor starting or other heavy loads. The line between relay and contactor is a little blurry, kind of depends on what its function is.

    You are also going to need a 24V relay for the E-stop circuit. Like one of these: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ies)/QL2X1-D24

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    I like the idea of being able to enable Z seperatly, I should have mentioned before but I plan on getting things going with the knee as the Z axis (with max speed cut waaaayyyyy down... something like 30ipm) and then using the machine to make the parts for the quill drive. Whatever type that may be, but I am leaning more and more twords a setup like yours. I really hate the ballscrew out the front method. My brain is thinking of a zero backlash planetary instead of the gear drive though. $$$ Will cross that bridge when I get there.

    You are also going to need a 24V relay for the E-stop circuit. Like one of these: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ies)/QL2X1-D24
    maybe ill keep the relay module then, its a 24v coil with a 10A rating on the load as well. X8

    If you don't mind, I am curious so I get get a sense of the layout where the contactor wiring is going to / from. Let me try... 2 of the high power 24v optoisolated outputs will power the coil on the contactor. One for z and one for z,y,knee. The contactor will take the fused ac on the input and output goes to the servo drive power in's? The E stop and enable pushbutton switch (maintained) will be wired in series between the controller and the coil?

    Last question for the night I promise, whichever way I choose to mount the controller, its going to be right on top of the contactors how I have things laid out right now. Is the magnetic field of the coil going to interfere with things? Maybe it'll be easier if you can explain which, if any, devices cannot be mounted within close proximity to one another. Thanks!!



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    Default Re: Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

    Quote Originally Posted by sohcpwr View Post
    I like the idea of being able to enable Z seperatly, I should have mentioned before but I plan on getting things going with the knee as the Z axis (with max speed cut waaaayyyyy down... something like 30ipm) and then using the machine to make the parts for the quill drive. Whatever type that may be, but I am leaning more and more twords a setup like yours. I really hate the ballscrew out the front method. My brain is thinking of a zero backlash planetary instead of the gear drive though. $$$ Will cross that bridge when I get there.
    A planetary system would work, but how do you disengage it for manual use?

    If you don't mind, I am curious so I get get a sense of the layout where the contactor wiring is going to / from. Let me try... 2 of the high power 24v optoisolated outputs will power the coil on the contactor. One for z and one for z,y,knee. The contactor will take the fused ac on the input and output goes to the servo drive power in's? The E stop and enable pushbutton switch (maintained) will be wired in series between the controller and the coil?
    I'll answer this one tomorrow, my brain is fried tonight, been a long day. I'll post a drawing.

    Last question for the night I promise, whichever way I choose to mount the controller, its going to be right on top of the contactors how I have things laid out right now. Is the magnetic field of the coil going to interfere with things? Maybe it'll be easier if you can explain which, if any, devices cannot be mounted within close proximity to one another. Thanks!!
    Won't be a problem at all. There is very little magnetic field outside of the contactor.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise