Another bridgeport retrofit, need advise

[Jim Dawson]

Please feel free to disagree You have studied the internal amps much more than I have. The only experience I have with the internal amps is with very small NEMA 17 Hall equipped servos from Anaheim Automation, and also used them to run a very small brushed DC servo, and in one case one to run a small open loop stepper.

I do have extensive experience connecting Galil controllers to external open and closed loop steppers, brushed DC servos, and up to 30 KW AC servos. From your research it sounds like the Galil internal amps are somewhat limited in scope, and to broaden your search, maybe looking at motors with external drives would be your best bet. You still got a smokin deal on that controller even if the internal amps are not useful to you. The Galil controller will connect to any external drive that will accept a step & direction or +/- 10 volt analog input.

[Marty_Escarcega]

I know I am late to this "Party" but, it seems you want to refit a manual Bridgeport. How are you going to deal with the backlash in your leadscrews? Are you going to refit the machine with ballscrews?

My first suggestion would be for you to watch for a purpose built CNC machine with a dead or old control. I just picked up a Supermax YCM-40 CNC knee mill for about scrap value. A fellow in my local metalworking club rescued a COMET CNC Knee mill from a scrap yard with an old Fanuc control, he sold off all the control boards and more than paid for the mill. He kept the yellow top Fanuc servo motors, along with their encoders and refitted the control with a Centroid/Ajax All in One DC control


I can recommend the Centroid All in One DC control. I just finished the refit of my CNC Knee Mill from a Mitutoyo Millstar III control to a Centroid All in One DC. I documented most of the conversion and even tried to go over the All in One DC subsystems on a dry erase board. You can find it on my YouTube channel, martyscncgarage. I have some pictures on my google photo album as well: https://goo.gl/photos/1AN1yNPp6GHyKkCn8

I estimate with the control, the encoders, reusing my servos, new TECO VFDs, cabinet, computer, nickel and dime stuff, I have about $4k into the retrofit. True closed loop industrial grade motion control system by a company that has been around a long time. My machine was in really nice shape, so I bit the bullet and am glad I did it.

My second choice would be to use DMM AC drives and possibly the Centroid OAK motion controller. I am looking at doing this combo for a Supermax YCM-40 I recently picked up.

My third choice would be the DMM AC drives/motors with the soon to be released ACORN Step/Dir motion controller from Centroid. Uses the SAME software as the software on the All in One DC. Outputs step and direction. You could use the DMM DYN2 which are less expensive than the Dyn4 using step and direction input. This is not a true closed loop system, the servo drive closes the loop however and is a better option than stepper motors. With ACORN, I will never go back to Mach. as long as it is around. It makes sense to buy the motion controller that is made by the same company as the software. No finger pointing...follow the AJAX forum on CNCZONE for more info and updates on ACORN. OR if you have any questions about All in One DC or OAK. The Centroid guys monitor it and try to answer questions.

If it were a smaller machine, the new line of brushless DC motors WITH drives built on from Teknic, Clearpath SDSK https://www.teknic.com/products/clea.../clearpath-sd/
would be another option.

(Now mind you, I don't have direct experience with DMM but I hope to try them out and I'll see about doing videos on that process too)

What exactly is your budget, what do you intend to do with the machine? DO YOU have some basic electrical/electronic skills?

My .02 on the subject.

Fun stuff, so much new technology out there....

Marty

[sohcpwr]

All to familiar with the arguments of buying a purpose built CNC machine vs retrofitting a manual. For me it comes down to space and the fact that I am unwilling to give up my manual machine and put a CNC in its place. Maybe one day when I have a much bigger garage I will do another retrofit on a machine with a toolchanger. My machine is a 1 owner late 80s Sharp bridgeport clone with chrome ways and an one shot lube installed from the factory. It is in good to excellent condition and was never used for production purposes.

As far as the current project goes, I actually decided on this path for 2 reasons. I intentionally chose to piece together my own kit vs buying one because I enjoy building things and I wanted to learn more about motion control. The Galil unit arrived yesterday, and while I got an awesome deal, it was a little too pricy to go changing up the control system now. Not sure I would want to anyway, Jim's software looks like it will do everything I need and since it was programmed for the Galil motion controller I would expect few issues like the Mach family of software.

Backlash... I wouldnt even think of building a CNC machine without ballscrews. Currently I am trying to decide between a new Hiwin set @ $1400 or a used set that came out of an early 90s ez-trak. I have a Taiwanese Sharp bridgeport clone so I'm nervous about small differences in dimensions if I go that route.

I appreciate your suggestions though I did look hard at the Centroid kits at first, but it just seemed like it took all the fun out of it for me.

For the motors, I think I am going to go with the DMM kit for x and y axis and use the internal drives for the quill, knee (with a huge reduction), and "A" axis.

Budget, I usually start with some number and end up going way over anyway on all my projects so I don't even do that anymore. Just shop around for the best deals I can find and go from there. Looks like I should be under 5k when its done.

I would say my electrical skills are average at best. I know enough to complete most projects if its pretty clear what needs to be done (good manuals, schematics, etc) Its the software and computer side that is my weak spot. More on that in the next post

[sohcpwr]

So the unit and all the other stuff arrived yesterday, pulled a 22 hour overnight from 1 on fri to 11 sat morn so I was bummed I didnt get to race home and tear open the package like a little kid. Everything was exactly as described and he even threw in a ton of xtra cables, molex connectors for the unit, jumper pins, and a few other odds and ends. Awesome seller, I think his Ebay store was called industrialXT. Would highly recommend him.

Trying to get to the million dollar "what drives are in it" question, I threw together a quick power cable with the pigtail he gave me and one of the 24v power supplies I bought. It powered up fine and I tried connecting through the Ethernet port. Here's where I hit a snag... It looks like the controller has a burned in IP address of 192.168.0.80. It is grayed out under the window that comes up from the connect icon which supposedly means there is a subnet mask conflict. Which makes sense because this family of IP's is usually the same as most broadband routers for wireless networks. So I disabled my wireless network in the network sharing center thinking that would eliminate the sharing but it didnt work. I presume I have to either change the IP of my wireless to a different family if thats possible or connect to the Galil with RS232 protocall and change the IP on that. I'm ready for bed again so I will try again tomorrow with a clear head and probably an easy fix from Jim.

Theres a bunch of talk in the manual how a static IP is better and connecting through a switch is shown in the documentation. Can you connect directly to the computer? You network guru's please go easy on me, I literally know nothing about setting any of this up. I had to come have my younger cousin set up my wifi when I bought this place... Starting to feel old

[Jim Dawson]

Ok, take a deep breath, have some coffee, and wake up.

The Galil has an auto-sensing port so can be connected directly to the computer without a crossover cable. Set your computer up with a fixed IP address in the same subnet as the Galil, something like 192.168.0.81 then connect to it. Or just connect a serial or USB cable to it, you have 3 ways of communicating with that board.

The other option is to just do a Master Reset by the jumpers, and reset the card to the factory defaults which should turn on DHCP. But let's only do this as a last resort, I want to look at the DMC program that is currently on the card, it may give some insights as to what the custom firmware looks like. It may be useful as it is without reflashing the EPROM, I want to see what the DR looks like before we do too much.

[sohcpwr]

breathing... check

sleep... check

coffee... eewww

I'll describe what I did yesterday because I think I did what your suggesting already. I think the problem is that my router has an IP address in the 255.255.255.0 subnet so when I set the computer to it, there is a conflict. Should disabling the wireless network temporarily cause this to work?

So what I did was disable the wireless network, go to network sharing center, click on LAN network connection, click on properties, click on (TCP/IPV4), click properties, then click the radio button for "use the following IP address" typed in 192.168.1.40 and a bunch of others that didnt work, hit tab to auto fill the subnet, then closed all windows and relaunched Galil tools. Please let me know if I am doing something stoopid, like I said, I'm a real computer newb. I've had a MAC for the last 13 years, I can kinda get by with them.

[Jim Dawson]

breathing... check

sleep... check

coffee... eewww

I'll describe what I did yesterday because I think I did what your suggesting already. I think the problem is that my router has an IP address in the 255.255.255.0 subnet so when I set the computer to it, there is a conflict. Should disabling the wireless network temporarily cause this to work?

So what I did was disable the wireless network, go to network sharing center, click on LAN network connection, click on properties, click on (TCP/IPV4), click properties, then click the radio button for "use the following IP address" typed in 192.168.1.40 and a bunch of others that didnt work, hit tab to auto fill the subnet, then closed all windows and relaunched Galil tools. Please let me know if I am doing something stoopid, like I said, I'm a real computer newb. I've had a MAC for the last 13 years, I can kinda get by with them.

Try direct connecting the computer to the Galil. You won't be able to connect unless the subnet is the same. Try 192.168.0.40

[sohcpwr]

are you kidding me? I swear I tried ones with the 0 there but figured since the subnet kept filling in 255.255.255 it was the same for all 192.168's. Geez now I actually feel like an idiot instead of saying I am. Ready for further instructions... I must be too excited cause im looking all through the manual for where I saw which command returns the info of how the board is configured. Its T something right? TL, TR, TS??

[Jim Dawson]

The command you want is ID. That displays all of the controller configuration.

Copy and paste that data into a post so I can see what the heck you have there.

Also do a LS, that will list out the program that is in the controller. You can also do an Upload, that will put the existing program into a program window.

[sohcpwr]

Success!! Well somewhat, the amps are what I thought they were:

OFFLINE:
192.168.0.80, DMC4080 Rev 1.1d1, 5292, IHA IHB
:ID
DMC4000 rev 0
Connector J3= Communications Board CMB-41012 3.3 volt i/o rev 0
Connector P1= Servo Amplifier Board AMP-43040 500 watt rev 1
Connector P2= Servo Amplifier Board AMP-43040 500 watt rev 1
:

[sohcpwr]

LS returned a program that is 2000 lines long, want to PM me your email address and I'll send it to you?

[Jim Dawson]

Here is your firmware rev 192.168.0.80, DMC4080 Rev 1.1d1, 5292, IHA IHB

1.1d would be standard firmware, 1.1d1 also looks like standard firmware, but very old. Current versions are 2.xx

Go here and read the release notes, see what is compatible with your board. DMC 4000 Firmware Release Notes and Download Archive

We want the latest that will be compatible with your board. But don't install anything yet!

[sohcpwr]

Had a bunch of setbacks which caused my project to sit on the back burner for awhile but I'm back at it again. A good chuck of delay was actually waiting for the motors from DMM, I originally ordered the incremental encoders to use with a couple Allen Bradley drives I picked up on Evilbay for super cheap. To their credit, after waiting a couple months they offered me an outstanding deal on their DYN4 drives to match the motors. So the other day I plugged into the drives and saw movement for the first time... pretty exciting!!





I am still having a hard time believing that this motor that's the size of a pack of cigarettes is friggin 1hp. Below is it compared to an older technology one that actually has slightly less torque









So I have everything laid out to see how big of an enclosure I'm going to need. Trying to decide now whether to get the 30x20x10 or 30x30x12 and mount it on the wall instead of the side of the machine. Next step is to master reset the controller, upgrade the firmware, and then make the necessary connections to try and get the controller to play nice with the drives. Maybe Jim can help answer a few more fuzzy areas for me:

The quadrature encoder output of the DYN4 drives is only 2048 pulses per rev. The absolute ones on the back of the motor are 64,000 something and I guess that is all going to waste if I use the +/- 10V analogue control method? That kinda bothers me

I'm a little stuck on how to wire the amplifier enable circuit with an external power supply... Seems like no matter what I come up with, there's always an extra wire on one side. Crude drawling below:

[mactec54]

Had a bunch of setbacks which caused my project to sit on the back burner for awhile but I'm back at it again. A good chuck of delay was actually waiting for the motors from DMM, I originally ordered the incremental encoders to use with a couple Allen Bradley drives I picked up on Evilbay for super cheap. To their credit, after waiting a couple months they offered me an outstanding deal on their DYN4 drives to match the motors. So the other day I plugged into the drives and saw movement for the first time... pretty exciting!!


So I have everything laid out to see how big of an enclosure I'm going to need. Trying to decide now whether to get the 30x20x10 or 30x30x12 and mount it on the wall instead of the side of the machine. Next step is to master reset the controller, upgrade the firmware, and then make the necessary connections to try and get the controller to play nice with the drives. Maybe Jim can help answer a few more fuzzy areas for me:

The quadrature encoder output of the DYN4 drives is only 2048 pulses per rev. The absolute ones on the back of the motor are 64,000 something and I guess that is all going to waste if I use the +/- 10V analogue control method? That kinda bothers me

What control software are you going to use

This video was with Dmm Dyna 2 Drives and 750w motors 1:1 drive

[Jim Dawson]

The quadrature encoder output of the DYN4 drives is only 2048 pulses per rev. The absolute ones on the back of the motor are 64,000 something and I guess that is all going to waste if I use the +/- 10V analogue control method?

The drives do not have an adjustable encoder output? I have only connected to one AB drive and I don't remember much about it. For a machine tool, my preference is to put 1 micron magnetic scales on the load (table). 1 micron resolution gives you 25400 pulses per inch. This pretty much eliminates any lead screw and backlash errors. But there is no substitution for double ball nuts adjusted for zero backlash. I don't know if the AB drives will take a step & direction input, but if so, that would eliminate the encoder feedback to the controller without a bunch of complicated programming. I am using this method on my router.

I'm a little stuck on how to wire the amplifier enable circuit with an external power supply... Seems like no matter what I come up with, there's always an extra wire on one side. Crude drawling below:

I normally just use an output to enable the amps through an opto relay. The way I have the mill wired is that OUT1 controls the main servo power, enabled on Estop OK and Enable Button pushed. The amps are enabled as the default condition. OUT2 controls the Z axis power separately so I can turn it on and off from the screen for manual use. Estop OK and Enabled must also be active for the Z axis to operate. OUT3 controls power to the 4th axis, just the like the Z axis.

In other words, default the drives to enabled on power up and don't worry about the AEN.

[mactec54]

The quadrature encoder output of the DYN4 drives is only 2048 pulses per rev. The absolute ones on the back of the motor are 64,000 something and I guess that is all going to waste if I use the +/- 10V analogue control method? That kinda bothers me

No that's not how it works you will have full use of the Encoder 16Bit resolution at all times

[sohcpwr]

No that's not how it works you will have full use of the Encoder 16Bit resolution at all times

My thinking was without the controller sending step and direction inputs to the drive, it is relying on the encoder feedback from the drive to update the motion profile?

The drives do not have an adjustable encoder output? I have only connected to one AB drive and I don't remember much about it. For a machine tool, my preference is to put 1 micron magnetic scales on the load (table). 1 micron resolution gives you 25400 pulses per inch. This pretty much eliminates any lead screw and backlash errors. But there is no substitution for double ball nuts adjusted for zero backlash. I don't know if the AB drives will take a step & direction input, but if so, that would eliminate the encoder feedback to the controller without a bunch of complicated programming. I am using this method on my router.

I think I confused you, I havent really messed with the AB drives yet, so for now I am only talking about hooking up the DMM DYN4 drives to the galil. Will be using those for x and y, and the AB drive and surplus motor for the z axis. Below is an excerpt from the DYN4 manual:

"Refer to Section 2.4 for encoder output connection diagram and circuit. This real time emulated encoder
output is scalable using the LINE_NUM parameter set in the DMMDRV program. The pulse output per
revolution is set according to:
Pulse output per revolution = LINE_NUM * 4
For example, if LINE_NUM = 2,000 then 8,000 pulses will be output per motor revolution. The Z pulse is
output once per motor revolution. LINE_NUM can be set from 500 to 2,048."



I am certainly still putting the magnetic 1um scales on all the axis as the aux encoder, trying to wait for some to come up on my favorite auction site for a good deal. I did see some knock-off ones to the renishaw's available now from some company called SPM or something. They were about $120ea so their a last resort.

What control software are you going to use

I am hoping to give Jim's controller software a try if the offer is still on the table?? Otherwise open to suggestions other than Mach, but that doesnt really leave many options. Camsoft is the only one I am aware of.

[mactec54]

My thinking was without the controller sending step and direction inputs to the drive, it is relying on the encoder feedback from the drive to update the motion profile?




I think I confused you, I havent really messed with the AB drives yet, so for now I am only talking about hooking up the DMM DYN4 drives to the galil. Will be using those for x and y, and the AB drive and surplus motor for the z axis. Below is an excerpt from the DYN4 manual:

"Refer to Section 2.4 for encoder output connection diagram and circuit. This real time emulated encoder
output is scalable using the LINE_NUM parameter set in the DMMDRV program. The pulse output per
revolution is set according to:
Pulse output per revolution = LINE_NUM * 4
For example, if LINE_NUM = 2,000 then 8,000 pulses will be output per motor revolution. The Z pulse is
output once per motor revolution. LINE_NUM can be set from 500 to 2,048."



I am certainly still putting the magnetic 1um scales on all the axis as the aux encoder, trying to wait for some to come up on my favorite auction site for a good deal. I did see some knock-off ones to the renishaw's available now from some company called SPM or something. They were about $120ea so their a last resort.




I am hoping to give Jim's controller software a try if the offer is still on the table?? Otherwise open to suggestions other than Mach, but that doesnt really leave many options. Camsoft is the only one I am aware of.

I don't know what Jim has for a control, it's an unknown, is it a full blown control or just does the basic operations

Why did you go with the galil. unless you use dumb servo drives you will have a hard time setting it up, ( if ever ) Dmm have intelligent Drives, so this could be a problem, Mach does not work very well with Galil, Camsoft is good but a very big learning curve, even if you do the Camsoft training course, if they still have it, in CA I did it some years ago, did do some installs, but way too time consuming to be viable

[Jim Dawson]

My thinking was without the controller sending step and direction inputs to the drive, it is relying on the encoder feedback from the drive to update the motion profile?

Your best option is to use the analog command signal (+/- 10V) if your drive will accept that input. When using this in conjunction with 1 micron scales on the load, I have gotten single digit micron accuracy, verified by an independent metrology lab. I have no way to measure that close in my shop.

I think I confused you, I havent really messed with the AB drives yet, so for now I am only talking about hooking up the DMM DYN4 drives to the galil. Will be using those for x and y, and the AB drive and surplus motor for the z axis. Below is an excerpt from the DYN4 manual:

"Refer to Section 2.4 for encoder output connection diagram and circuit. This real time emulated encoder
output is scalable using the LINE_NUM parameter set in the DMMDRV program. The pulse output per
revolution is set according to:
Pulse output per revolution = LINE_NUM * 4
For example, if LINE_NUM = 2,000 then 8,000 pulses will be output per motor revolution. The Z pulse is
output once per motor revolution. LINE_NUM can be set from 500 to 2,048."

Differential quadrature output gives you 4 pulses per encoder line. This is the standard input to Galil.

Depending on your lead screw lead, 8000 PPR should give good resolution. But not needed at all if the scales are on the load.

I am certainly still putting the magnetic 1um scales on all the axis as the aux encoder, trying to wait for some to come up on my favorite auction site for a good deal. I did see some knock-off ones to the renishaw's available now from some company called SPM or something. They were about $120ea so their a last resort.

I would use the mag scales as the main encoder input. This will give the best accuracy. This closes the loop at the load (table) rather than on the leadscrew, takes inaccuracies of the leadscrew and most of the backlash out of the equation.

Ditron has Renishaw clone mag scales. I have tested them against Renishaw and found them to be just as accurate and have reccomended them to others. I also have them on my lathe. I do have Renishaw on my mill and router only because they were available from Ebay at the time. I would not hesitate the use the Ditron units at about $120/axis.

I am hoping to give Jim's controller software a try if the offer is still on the table?? Otherwise open to suggestions other than Mach, but that doesnt really leave many options. Camsoft is the only one I am aware of.

Yes the offer is still on the table. I would like to have a couple more beta test installations before I release the software.

[Jim Dawson]

I don't know what Jim has for a control, it's an unknown, is it a full blown control or just does the basic operations

Why did you go with the galil. unless you use dumb servo drives you will have a hard time setting it up, ( if ever ) Dmm have intelligent Drives, so this could be a problem, Mach does not work very well with Galil, Camsoft is good but a very big learning curve, even if you do the Camsoft training course, if they still have it, in CA I did it some years ago, did do some installs, but way too time consuming to be viable

My software is pretty much full featured. At present it supports most of the common canned cycles and G/M codes, as well as full 4 axis profiling. 6 axis control is in the planning stages. It also supports open and closed loop steppers, hybrid steppers, and full closed loop servo systems, in any combination.

The reason I wrote the software in the first place was due to some bad experience with a Mach3/Galil installation. The speed and accuracy was not up to industrial standards, so I just wrote my own software to solve the problem and make the customer happy.