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    Quote Originally Posted by BOSS5 View Post
    You seem to be the one who got pissed off. Show where the engineering math is wrong, rather than countering with bluster.
    I guess you ignored my apology (both private and public), and wanted to continue to be RIGHT! I have already conceded all your points in my apology. I have no idea what you are up to. You seem to want an argument when there is none. I have already apologized for my error in understanding... I give up....

    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)


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    Smile Apology

    Quote Originally Posted by HawkJET View Post
    I guess you ignored my apology (both private and public), and wanted to continue to be RIGHT! I have already conceded all your points in my apology. I have no idea what you are up to. You seem to want an argument when there is none. I have already apologized for my error in understanding... I give up....
    HawkJET:
    I was composing my response during the time you posted, so did not get to read it till afterwards. Composing the response took more than an hour, as I was also still doing other things. Went to bed afterwards, it was 1:00 AM., only to get a notice of your (irritated) reply in the morning. No offense meant there. Appology accepted.

    I was originally trying to help out jonesturf by pointing him in a direction that would give the performance he was looking for without sending him (or others) in circles spending money on stuff that wasn't going to meet the desires. I've been at this for more than 30 years, on and off, learn't a few lessons along the way that cost me. When you threw a few statements into the mix (with good intent) that did not make much technical sense, I tried to lay out the facts and experience I'd gathered along the way to educate anybody who would take the time to absorb it for their benefit. Hopefully somebody somewhere other than ourselves gained a bit of needed insight out of this exchange to move their projects along.

    Essentially for hobbists on a shoestring budget, they are left to choose between converting light imported manual mills, or old industial grade iron like the stepper driven BOSS mills. The better value (monetarily) is in the old iron if you have the space for it. Starting with a manual bridgeport type machine is the expensive route. There is enough info available on modifying the light imported stuff, but blowing up Gecko's and similar hardware, or buying new motors in the hope of making things better does not come cheap as you begin to tackle modernizing an old industrial machine. If you make all the right choices the first time around, $1000 should cover drives, breakout boards, switches, accessories and a used computer + software. But most people make ill informed choices and end up with a piece of machinery that performs inferior to the stock setup, vibrates, etc.. Then some end up talking trash about any Bridgeport BOSS that isn't yet running servo drives, for they didn't have success until taking this route. Sure they are better, but you can't realistically get there on a $1000 budget for everything. If you find one of these servo units with working drives, and can get it for the price of a stepper driven mill, then the additional $1000 for new controls and the rest of the things you will need might get you there, but the learning curve for beginners is just so much steeper and intimidating. Don't get me wrong, I also own top end servo hardware and it is great, but in a different price / complexity range.

    Passing this info along was (and still is) my motivation.



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    Quote Originally Posted by BOSS5 View Post
    Appology accepted.
    Great! We can move on...

    Quote Originally Posted by BOSS5 View Post
    I was originally trying to help out jonesturf by pointing him in a direction that would give the performance he was looking for without sending him (or others) in circles spending money on stuff that wasn't going to meet the desires.
    Your advice is sound. I couldn't have done better myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOSS5 View Post
    Hopefully somebody somewhere other than ourselves gained a bit of needed insight out of this exchange to move their projects along.
    Yes, I agree, those were my thoughts also.

    Quote Originally Posted by BOSS5 View Post
    Passing this info along was (and still is) my motivation.
    That's great. It's my motivation also. All the points you have made are good ones. As I said in my apology, it's rare in these pages to find someone that has as full a grasp of motors as you do. I hope my earlier misunderstanding hasn't detracted from the valuable information you have posted here. Thank you for accepting my apology.

    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)


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    HawkJet:
    Thanks for the kind words. I'll let you know of anything I discover once I find time to play around with the original motors and the DSP controlled drive. That may be a few weeks.



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    Got my leadshines a couple weeks back. Going to be installing them over the weekend.

    Boss5-Did you get yours up and running yet? Waiting to hear how they compare to the Superiors.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2



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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    Does anyone have a wiring diagram for the sigmas in series? I have found parallel but I want to try both.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2



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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    Nevermind they were wired that way from the start. I ended up confusing myself yesterday and then having to unconfuse myself. Got it running. Can't get any better than .001 resolution but that was kind of expected although I was hoping it would hlmalf step to .0005.

    Do you guys know of any updated motors that will mount to the BOSS easily and microstep well?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2



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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesturf View Post
    Can't get any better than .001 resolution
    Hmmm... I would have expected them to half-step....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesturf View Post
    Do you guys know of any updated motors that will mount to the BOSS easily and microstep well?
    I don't. I am going to replace mine with some modern steppers from Keling. They are a PITA to swap because I need to make adapters, but I've got it about 1/3 done.

    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)


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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    Initially I set it up to step at .0001 and it didn't so then I set it up .0005 and its still .001. Maybe with some more playing around I will get lucky. These were checked with an indicator. Also found I have .0015 backlash on x and. 0005 on y. I guess that's good.

    Would like to be a little more accurate. Ya that's what I've gathered too about the motors although I swear I was reading somewhere Boss5 had some that met the requirements. Maybe I'm dreaming since I've done so much research on this project. What size are you thinking about using? I was thinking nema 34 and figured it might not be a bad idea as one of my earlier projects. I plan on actually using this to make parts to those resolutions so its not just for bragging rights.

    I do have some heavy duty servos on a regular BP that I have touched yet because its a basketcase but I think I will stick to steppers. I had it at 180ipm just for fun for a second and that's way too fast. Drives seemed to handle it though. Thanks for all your help. So far I'm pretty pleased wth the leadshines except between 6-9ipm. Then it kind of rumbles but my mill isn't really shimmed right on the floor either.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2



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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    My BOSS 3 has virtually zero backlash, so anything more than .0005" would have me concerned. Also, do you have your mechanical counters still on the X and Y axes? If so, that is where I would look to see if they half-step. An indicator and the backlash can give misleading information. Plus, back in the day, stepper motors were not nearly as precisely manufactured so it is possible the step size from phase to phase is not consistent. This can effect whether half-stepping (or micro-stepping) is very effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesturf View Post
    I swear I was reading somewhere Boss5 had some that met the requirements
    I remember he said he had a catalog. I would suspect those would be identical to the motors you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesturf View Post
    What size are you thinking about using?
    I have three Keling KL34H2120-60-4A Motors. They are 34 frame size and 1200 oz in holding torque.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesturf View Post
    So far I'm pretty pleased wth the leadshines except between 6-9ipm. Then it kind of rumbles
    It is likely the rumble is the nature of stepper motors and NOT something to do with the drivers.

    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)


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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    OK so i looked at my counters and I see it half stepping but it doesn't register on the table. I've tried 2 indicators and moved to a more rigid setup with the indicator thinking maybe some flex is involved.

    When the table does move I feel it vibrate (harder) and the indicator shows it. The counter moves regardless. It doesn't seem to be really half stepping everytime on the table but it shows it on the counter. Sometimes its like a quarter step then a full step but maybe that's just the indicator. I do see it on the counter though so it does seem to be doing it.

    The x axis has between .0015-.002 backlash on the indicator and by feel. The counter says it has zero. What do you think is right?

    I will do some more testing but it looks like I might just have to deal with it. I don't know if there is way to adjust that on the machine. Not going to worry about it too much at this point. Want to finish everything first and then I will get into all the tweaks.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2



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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    If I bump.my steps up to .010 then it shows zero backlash on x and now y has about .006. Before I was using .0005 steps and my y changed to .006 when I checked it again. I dont know where I got the first number for y from. But with the .0005 steps I was getting a couple thou of BL on x and then when I move up in step it disappears.

    I'm done playing with this till later. It just seems weird. Thought I would.mention it. Hopefully I'm wrong and I have zero backlash everywhere.



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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesturf View Post
    maybe some flex is involved.
    When the motor moves a step (or half step), it is similar to a light tap from a hammer (it's the nature of stepper motors). There is clearance in the ways (or it wouldn't slide) as well as stiction. So when the motor moves a half step, it winds up the belt, lead screw, way clearance, etc. Then the next step, the system is already wound up so then it jumps a couple steps or more. The counters are more directly connected to the motor shaft than the indicator on the table, so you'll see movement on the counter that may not show on the table. When the moves are larger than a few steps, this issue almost disappears

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesturf View Post
    The x axis has between .0015-.002 backlash on the indicator and by feel. The counter says it has zero. What do you think is right?
    The backlash will happen in the lead screw and nut. The counter is before that, so it will move with the motor.

    How are you measuring backlash? You should indicate the location of a hole (or other feature), move the axis away 6 inches or so, then move it back that same amount. Now check that the machine is re-centered on the hole. Then move the other direction and back, then check again.

    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)


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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    I was measuring it off the base of a solid work stop that was flat chucked up in an endmill holder. I used a DTI and a dial indicator but I like your way better.

    I noticed when I switched the dial indicator and made bigger steps the backlash disappeared to maybe half a thou. That would support what you said on the belt, screw etc loading up in tiny steps. I'm at least a little more relieved now. How often will I be making .0005 moves anyway?

    Like I said I'm done playing for now....really this time. Once I finish off the rest I will visit it again. I do like your idea with the circle. Wouldn't that measure repeatabilty and not backlash in a single direction?

    Also I guess I need to learn more about everything in general. I remember seeing something in my CAM about cutting abd approachibg the same direction every time. If thats case it would kind of take care of itself most of the time like a manual machine.

    I also need to look into how linuxcnc bl compensation works at some point. So many things to learn. Thanks again for the help! Its been a fun project so far. I can't wait to start making money with it.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2



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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesturf View Post
    Wouldn't that measure repeatabilty and not backlash in a single direction?
    Yes, you are correct. Backlash is by far the major component of repeatability on these machines. But I think by going both ways, you cancel out repeatability and backlash is all that's left... I'll have to think about it....

    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)


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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    OK, I guess I need to learn exactly what I'm looking for when it comes to backlash and repeatabilty and how to fix it. Like I said still a lot to learn!

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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    Quote Originally Posted by HawkJET View Post
    Yes, you are correct. Backlash is by far the major component of repeatability on these machines. But I think by going both ways, you cancel out repeatability and backlash is all that's left... I'll have to think about it....
    I think if you go into the hole from one direction and zero it and then continue that direction 6" and then reverse directions back to the hole it should show backlash. If you went another 6" and back it should cancel out. I guess it depends on what way you are moving to begin with and whether or not there was backlash taken up or not. At least that's how I would perceive it.

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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    HawkJET, do you have a plan for the Sigma steppers once you replace them? I have a spare X/Y motor that I was planning to use to replace my seized Z-axis motor. I'm not sure yet if it fits the same as the housing is different on the Z. It's always nice to have spares, especially when they just bolt on... Thanks.

    I'm in the process of rebuilding a Series I Boss3.

    BTW, when I was measuring backlash, I could not detect any reliably with an indicator. I would load up the indicator and zero, and move back and forth a specified amount within the range of the indicator (say 0.100, 0.200, etc.) and see if the dial stopped on the correct number, and it always did. Another test I performed was, for example, move X left to load the indicator and then back right a small amount, then zero indicator. Now continue to move right a foot or so and then back to zero at rapid (which are currently set low at 60 ipm). I got zero every time (within limits of an indicator). This told me that I have very little backlash and that I was not missing steps. I did the same at milling speeds too with the same result. I think the proof, however, will be when I actually mill something.

    I noticed that I could observe 1/2 steps in one direction (it might have been 1/3, 2/3 step here or there, etc...), but when reversing direction, it always took one half step before the table would start to move in the other direction. I think HawkJET has explained the reason well.

    My testing was done in gross form, just to see that the drives and machine were actually working as expected, so I will be doing more testing as soon as I get the machine back together (might be a couple more months as I contemplate disassembly of the bottom end). For reference, I was using Gecko 203V drives and a 32V, 10A supply, which I will replace with the traditional 72V, 20A supply. My project came with these drivers or I would have heeded the wonderful advise of BOSS5 in this thread.



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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
    HawkJET, do you have a plan for the Sigma steppers once you replace them?
    No, I do not. I don't want them so I will get rid of them somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
    I have a spare X/Y motor that I was planning to use to replace my seized Z-axis motor. I'm not sure yet if it fits the same as the housing is different on the Z. It's always nice to have spares, especially when they just bolt on... Thanks.
    Two things...first, are you SURE the MOTOR is seized? If the Z axis is operated without limit switches, one can jam the quill against the ball nut and it is a royal PITA to un-jam (don't ask me how I know...).

    Second, the motors for all axes should be identical - they are on my BOSS 3.

    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)


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    Default Re: BP Boss Stepper Driver - Gecko or Keling?

    I would likely have some interest in the motors.

    I removed the motor and it is seized. That is the way I got it. The seller of my machine said he had 3 spare motors, but had to find them. He found one. The actual motors might be identical, but the housings (fins) are different on mine and I just have not tried to install the spare that I have, nor do I know if it works (but at least it is not seized )

    I've experienced over-extending the quill slightly and getting caught on the limit switches. I have my head completely apart as I needed to rebuild the variable speed drive, and in the process discovered some of the Z-axis ballscrew balls floating around on top of the screw and quill, so someone really overextended the quill (only possible by removing the quill stop) and the nut came partially off the screw, loosing some of its balls. Somehow they got it back up and one would not even notice the problem without taking everything apart.

    I have everything now to get the head back together, maybe this weekend. I kind of wonder if the seized motor and ballscrew issue are related. Anyway, I'm glad I saw what happened and am getting it fixed properly. I'm, stopping short of the spindle bearings until I see how it runs with the head rebuild. The variable speed - all the bearings down to the back gear - were shot.

    Thanks



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