Problem Adaptive rough stepover V26


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    Default Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Here's an issue I have from time to time. This adaptive rough toolpath seems to be picking it's own stepover. I have it set for 1% (should be .005" with a 1/2" end mill) but when I run the part it is clearly cutting ~.100". Anybody else ever seen this? Is there a fix?

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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Not answer your question,as the software is indeed not doing a %1 step-over
    BUT
    You are cutting 4140 ? If you are using a HSM,you should have a %6 to %12 step-over..The software does compute correctly at that.
    I cannot think of any situation that would dictate %1.That is terrible on the cutter as it rubs as much as it cuts.



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    I am actually cutting hardened D2. Advice I got on the PM forum indicated .012" to .015" radial depth of cut for this hard stuff so that's what I was shooting for and have just been trying different values to see if I can get the tool path to reflect my inputs. Going from 2 to 5 to 10 to 20% seems to produce no change in the tool path. Jump to 50% and it starts to look different. I guess I am encountering a bug.



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Ben,
    I talked to support today.
    I did an example while our computers were linked.
    I put in a value of %10 step-over for a 1/2 inch EM.
    Then I showed how it only calculated .030 step-over
    The guy on the phone was a rather new to BoB,,and he started to explain that using HSM paths they calculate the best path.
    I told him No,,,it should calculate what I enter or they should eliminate the check box altogether then,because it is no good.
    He thought for a minute,then agreed.He then asked another tech,and he was unaware of this bug also.
    So, they are going to pass it on up higher in the food chain to figure it out.



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmach View Post
    Ben,
    I talked to support today.
    I did an example while our computers were linked.
    I put in a value of %10 step-over for a 1/2 inch EM.
    Then I showed how it only calculated .030 step-over
    The guy on the phone was a rather new to BoB,,and he started to explain that using HSM paths they calculate the best path.
    I told him No,,,it should calculate what I enter or they should eliminate the check box altogether then,because it is no good.
    He thought for a minute,then agreed.He then asked another tech,and he was unaware of this bug also.
    So, they are going to pass it on up higher in the food chain to figure it out.
    JR is this happening in V28?



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF. View Post
    JR is this happening in V28?

    In all versions with 2D adaptive.
    Easy to see,,,draw a rectangle and make one end dotted line.
    Pick 1/2 EM with %10 step-over
    compute tool path
    zoom in
    sketch a point on tool path and another on the next line over
    measure and it should be .050,BUT it will be between .03 to .04
    Do the same with different tool sizes and/or step-overs,,,the results vary,but are not right.



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    I use 3d adaptive roughing quite a bit, so it always throws me off when I select 2d roughing and I have to input stepover percent, rather then actual values.



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Thank you for taking your time to pursue this to that level, JR. I hope they will dig into it and get this sorted for us.



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben S View Post
    Here's an issue I have from time to time. This adaptive rough toolpath seems to be picking it's own stepover. I have it set for 1% (should be .005" with a 1/2" end mill) but when I run the part it is clearly cutting ~.100". Anybody else ever seen this? Is there a fix?

    I know im a little late to this discussion but did you ever find a fix for this. Im still using V26 and have been fighting this issue. BobCad doesnt seem to care that their software does not work as advertised and their "fix" for most problems is to release multiple versions in rapid session and make you pay for an upgrade.



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Quote Originally Posted by jrmach View Post
    In all versions with 2D adaptive.
    Easy to see,,,draw a rectangle and make one end dotted line.
    Pick 1/2 EM with %10 step-over
    compute tool path
    zoom in
    sketch a point on tool path and another on the next line over
    measure and it should be .050,BUT it will be between .03 to .04
    Do the same with different tool sizes and/or step-overs,,,the results vary,but are not right.
    It SHOULD be? You mean you are looking for constant values on an adaptive process? Hmmmm.

    So, what happens if you reduce the "Minimal curvature radius" value to something very miniscule? Be sure to measure the start points of each path!

    The "ADAPTIVE" is Adaptive and is calculating "keeping the tool engaged optimally". I wonder what 10% of the circumference of a .5 endmill is? (1.5707963267948965) coupled with the curvature radius constraints (Or permissions)

    I mean, as it goes around various corners and walls, wouldn't the engagement change, and the path ADAPT?

    If you want a constant stepover, use a pocket. not ADAPTIVE ROUGHING!



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Quote Originally Posted by BurrMan View Post
    It SHOULD be? You mean you are looking for constant values on an adaptive process? Hmmmm.

    So, what happens if you reduce the "Minimal curvature radius" value to something very miniscule? Be sure to measure the start points of each path!

    The "ADAPTIVE" is Adaptive and is calculating "keeping the tool engaged optimally". I wonder what 10% of the circumference of a .5 endmill is? (1.5707963267948965) coupled with the curvature radius constraints (Or permissions)

    I mean, as it goes around various corners and walls, wouldn't the engagement change, and the path ADAPT?

    If you want a constant stepover, use a pocket. not ADAPTIVE ROUGHING!

    Never have got a clear answer to how things are calculated or the full "intent"
    I see this tool path advertised as a HSM solution,but at the same time almost the majority of BoB'S video's show them choosing %30 to %5o step-over with a DOC only as deep as the tool diameter,clearly not what most others in the machining world consider a HSM tool path
    Don't get me wrong,,,I use the 2D Advanced Rough a lot,a lot ,,,and sometimes with adaptive
    Adaptive can add a lot of machining time when it is not necessary
    Advanced Roughing without Adaptive is way faster when the situation presents itself
    Think this is where confusion sets in
    The Adaptive is "adaptive" and many variables are involved,,,,just Advanced Rough without Adaptive is pretty predictable
    Burr is right on with the curvature radius,,,but not always the expected result as far as step-over
    I think this tool path is a combination Troichordial tool paths that the Top CAM systems used for quite awhile,along with the more recent HSM "craze" mixed in ??????
    Interesting how BoB has shown this tool path in many video's but also advertise it as a HSM at the same time
    Personally I have gone as far as with a .750 carbide EM at 9000 rpm and 1.100 DOC and a %15 radial and 180 ipm,,with the 2D Advanced Rough with Adaptive with great results.
    Gone faster if machine had higher rpm and more look ahead
    So I have liked the tool path,,but be nice to know what the intent of the developer was,,,is it suppose to be a true HSM,,,or little of this and that ?
    Approaching 200 ipm and 1 1/2 to 2X DOC,,,the tool path has to be very predictable and very smooth or your wallet will be empty soon

    Guess what I trying to say be careful at first till you hear and see that the results are what you expect,then turn it up

    In the End the advantage should be more cubic inches of material in the chip bin per/hour,,,,which does not always equal more cubic inches of chips per individual tool,,,,figuring it all out depends on so many factors,,,got to love machining

    Last edited by jrmach; 07-09-2017 at 11:57 PM.


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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    My brother really loves it. It allows him to run his machine much faster than the standard stuff.

    Here's an illustration of the 10 percent engagement description I was giving. So, instead of the standard "Constant stepover amount", the calculation is to keep the tool engaged evenly. Hence the trochoidal paths and everything radiused. (The standard way can have the cutter face engaging irregularly. Even up to half the tool!).

    In the pics and file, I divided the .5 tool into 10ths and dimmed the sectioned "contact areas".... In the one with the toolpath, I took a 10th section and placed it in the toolpath. See the stepover! I didn't take too much time trying to line up normal and directions. This is what changes in the cut path and the calculation, constantly looking at keeping a "10 percent of the tool engaged". But the depth will vary a bit, depending on the angles and attacks of the tool to the stock! it doesn't let the "50% contact" that a standard would.

    Adaptive rough stepover V26-10-percent-engagment-jpg

    Adaptive rough stepover V26-10-percent-engagment2-jpg

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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Still hold by what I say,,,sometimes Advanced Rough is the better strategy with out adaptive,,,faster,less air cutting,blah,blah,,,but sometimes not,,,got to get a feel of both strategies.
    On one hand Time is important,on another tool life,,,,

    for example,if DOC is not too deep,advanced rough with adaptive,will not be the the money maker

    if you need to remove a lot of material,going DOC of 2X the cutter diameter adds up quickly,,(as I said earlier,as the situation presents itself)

    but if doing shallow DOC,step-over of up to %80 can be acceptable,,,

    How many EM does everyone have to retire when only the tip for about .100 is dull ??

    Sure nice to wear out the whole length and get your moneys worth

    of course there are so many factors to consider

    Material can greatly influence everything

    Machining 4140,4340,D-1,etc,,,,,using adaptive is a clear winner

    Never a dull day figuring it all out

    Last edited by jrmach; 07-10-2017 at 03:44 AM.


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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    This ain't an advertisement,but simply put "HSM Adviser" is the best best calculator out there for HSM

    True and tried,,save many headaches and $ if you take the time to learn the app and apply it correctly



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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmach View Post
    Still hold by what I say,,,sometimes Advanced Rough is the better strategy with out adaptive,,,faster,less air cutting,blah,blah,,,but sometimes not,,,got to get a feel of both strategies.
    On one hand Time is important,on another tool life,,,,

    for example,if DOC is not too deep,advanced rough with adaptive,will not be the the money maker

    if you need to remove a lot of material,going DOC of 2X the cutter diameter adds up quickly,,(as I said earlier,as the situation presents itself)

    but if doing shallow DOC,step-over of up to %80 can be acceptable,,,

    How many EM does everyone have to retire when only the tip for about .100 is dull ??

    Sure nice to wear out the whole length and get your moneys worth

    of course there are so many factors to consider

    Material can greatly influence everything

    Machining 4140,4340,D-1,etc,,,,,using adaptive is a clear winner

    Never a dull day figuring it all out
    Hey mac, yes, i wasnt meaning the choice of one over the other. I wanted to ilustrate how the "adaptive" part works, with the tool engagement, and why not to expect a normal "divided by 10" stepover. Its a different stategy. A regular pocket dies the defined step, no matter what. Giving you variable tool engagments with the material. The adaptive one is a different calc.



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Not really on topic,,but very important to these tool paths,,,,is how you draw your stock,and dog leg rapids

    Sometimes drawing your stock slightly different than your actual stock can work wonders for the tool path,,,all depending on the shape of part

    One big flaw is,at least for Haas in some instances is dog leg rapids

    You either have to change your feed plane up high or,sometimes with a little adjusting of your stock,you may be able to avoid them altogether,,,can be frustrating and expensive,,,as simulation will not show you.Thanks Preditor Editor will for Haas.

    That is one thing I wish we had the ability to control better

    And dog leg rapids is a discussion better left for other forums,lol



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Sooo....I guess what im taking from all of this is that BobCAD has included options in the software that should not have been offerd? For example, the option to adjust the step over during the adaptive roughing process. I understand the term "adaptive" and I know the software is trying to generate an optimized tool path for a given cutter but I would love to be able to tell the software to reduce the step over being has there is a field in the Parameters page of the 3 axis wizard that literally asked you to input the desired step over. They even labeled it "Stepover". Being able to make the desired adjustment would be pretty nice considering that is how that feature of the software is advertised. I am cutting a large bevel gear with 54 teeth out of 304 Stainless so the pocket option isnt an option at all. I want to use the adaptive roughing option to rough out the material between the teeth. In order to be as efficient as possible I need to use a .25", .02cr, 4 flute, 3/8 LOC end mill. If I use the normal advanced roughing tool path I have to use a fairly shallow DOC and I end up wearing out the bottom of the cutter in no time not to mention im limited to 3000 rpm. If the adaptive roughing strategy would work as advertised I could back the stepover down a little and stop breaking end mills. Would anyone be willing to suggest a recommended feeds and speeds setup for the 1/4" end mill im using to cut the 304 stainless for the advanced roughing and the adaptive roughing tool paths? I would be curious to see what other users starting parameters would be.



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    Quote Originally Posted by arronpatton View Post
    Sooo....I guess what im taking from all of this is that BobCAD has included options in the software that should not have been offerd? For example, the option to adjust the step over during the adaptive roughing process. I understand the term "adaptive" and I know the software is trying to generate an optimized tool path for a given cutter but I would love to be able to tell the software to reduce the step over being has there is a field in the Parameters page of the 3 axis wizard that literally asked you to input the desired step over. They even labeled it "Stepover". Being able to make the desired adjustment would be pretty nice considering that is how that feature of the software is advertised. I am cutting a large bevel gear with 54 teeth out of 304 Stainless so the pocket option isnt an option at all. I want to use the adaptive roughing option to rough out the material between the teeth. In order to be as efficient as possible I need to use a .25", .02cr, 4 flute, 3/8 LOC end mill. If I use the normal advanced roughing tool path I have to use a fairly shallow DOC and I end up wearing out the bottom of the cutter in no time not to mention im limited to 3000 rpm. If the adaptive roughing strategy would work as advertised I could back the stepover down a little and stop breaking end mills. Would anyone be willing to suggest a recommended feeds and speeds setup for the 1/4" end mill im using to cut the 304 stainless for the advanced roughing and the adaptive roughing tool paths? I would be curious to see what other users starting parameters would be.
    But IT IS using 10% of the cutter in the adaptive way. But you seem to want "non adaptive stepover in the adaptive routine", and then keep going about "advertising"?

    If you want a constantant stepover, untick "adaptive".



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    I made no mention of the 10% in my comment. I dont want it to use 10% of the cutter diameter I only want it to use 5% of the cutter diameter, or 4% or 12% or whatever I want to use. I still want the adaptive routine but dont want it to step over any more than what I tell it to. This request isnt anything out of the norm. Wright or wrong its what I want it to do. If the intended design of the software is to not give the user the option to adjust the stepover then dont put that option in the software.



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    Default Re: Adaptive rough stepover V26

    Quote Originally Posted by arronpatton View Post
    I made no mention of the 10% in my comment. I dont want it to use 10% of the cutter diameter I only want it to use 5% of the cutter diameter, or 4% or 12% or whatever I want to use. I still want the adaptive routine but dont want it to step over any more than what I tell it to. This request isnt anything out of the norm. Wright or wrong its what I want it to do. If the intended design of the software is to not give the user the option to adjust the stepover then dont put that option in the software.
    Well:

    Quote Originally Posted by arronpatton View Post
    I know im a little late to this discussion but did you ever find a fix for this. Im still using V26 and have been fighting this issue. BobCad doesnt seem to care that their software does not work as advertised and their "fix" for most problems is to release multiple versions in rapid session and make you pay for an upgrade.
    We WERE talking to Ben, regarding his calculation of "What the Stepover of an adaptive path should be. I gave some examples! You keep doing division on the cutter diameter and then talking about something wrong?

    So 10% of the "ORIGINAL" .5 endmill was mentioned by a couple of people as ".05"... I pointed out that in an ADAPTIVE toolpath, it is a little .25 arc that is about .15 in length, which makes for a somewhat DIFFERENT stepover than you keep looking for.

    The stepover in the adaptive path is defined, then utilized! What exactly are you missing?



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