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I've been looking at other cad/cam demos and so far bobcad/cam 24 looks (GUI appearance) the best. Have talked with one of their sales reps,Dan, this morning (he called me around 11:30 am). I expressed the feelings and concerns to him that I have posted in this forum which weren't very flattering. He was very calm and professional didn't get offended or get an attitude and tried to explain my concerns away, though they still stick in my craw.
I'm going to stick with trying to get as familiar as I can with bobcad/cam by using their introduction videos and the demo at least until my feelings/concerns can be alleviated
The company caters to people that are already established (knowledgeable) in the CNC world, people that don't need their hand held from the beginning (like me).
For beginners like me, this is all overwhelming, and their introduction videos (what they call tutorial videos) doesn't help or Tutor at all. Yes, I am a; literal, technical, say what you mean and mean what you say type of person. Being new to all this milling/CNC jargon and symbols is like a high school grad looking at string theory theoretical math equations.
Also found out, by calling bobcad/cam, that you foot the bill for calling their tech support, whether you are a paying customer or not. I was told that the reason for this is "toll free calling is an exorbitant cost for the business and this is how they can offer their products so cheaply (cheap?? Lol). Well my mind went to work immediately...businesses write off their toll-free expenses as tax deductions in the first place and unless you're local you're going to call their toll free number in the first place so why cant the automated system or operator transfer you to tech support like any other business does?? They don't need another toll-free number as they already have one. Things just don't add up to 1+1 = 2.
Dan sent me an e-mail that I got as soon as I got off the phone with him and this is some of the info in it...
I attached some info on the Features & Functions on our NEW RELEASE V24. We can help you get what YOU want. Our new release V24 will provide you with Faster and Easier part programming without breaking the bank! Why do Hobby guys as well as NASA, Boeing, Intel, Harley Davidson, Lockheed Martin, Disneyland and other billion dollar companies come to us to solve their needs?
_____________________________________________________________________
Advantages:
* Whether its simple 2d or more complex 3d work our systems we will get you the Quality you want.
* Ease of learning and use to speed your processes
* No Maintenance/Yearly Fees!
* Free Training Webinars, Training Videos, and Tutorials!
* Free Post Processors/Customizing
* The Best Pricing in the Industry
* Bob Art Pro delivers Art Capability to your shop to give you that competitive edge.
* Full suite of Software Packages Customized to what You Want to accomplish
* 26 Years in Business with over 80000 suites of software placed WORLD WIDE!
Does any one know how much or if any of this is true??? I cant find any info on the clients he listed that they use bobcad/cam or what they use them for???
SO in another thread you just started, I posted a link to many free videos and someone else posted ANOTHER link to free training videos, but you seem to be ignoring those???
See this thread here:
V24 Training CD's
I think your focus, "as a complete newbie that knows nothing about this stuff" is misguided at the moment.. You are focused on directing BobCads business operations and looking at where and how boeing is using BobCad???
Try the free videos and demo.
OMG...I am not trying to direct their business operations. I simply stated that I am as you said "a complete newbie that knows nothing about this stuff"...yet, but am trying to learn. With you guys knowledge and patience on this forum and my not willing to give up, I'll get there eventually.Originally Posted by BurrMan
And as a mill,CNC,cad,cam virgin that bobcad/cam, by looking at their "introduction" videos, only target already established "knowledgeable" users. They don't seem to care about those like my self that have absolutely no experience started with their product with out having to buy it when I don't even knowing if I'll like it or not. They're missing out on a whole new customer demographic and I think that's sad, for us and them.
Comments made by others in the CNCzone threads (like real professional cad/cam users dont use bobcad/cam that they use software like rhino, alibre etc" and some things that bobcad/cam are telling me don't add up and gives me cause for concern. So I am looking for info from bobcad/cam users like yourself that can substantiate bobcad/cam's claims.
I'm just doing my due diligence to get the most/best information about them that I can get so I can make a properly informed decision to buy or not buy their product...that's all.
I really like the look/layout and feel of their GUI (graphical user interface BTW). But looks doesn't get the job done. I haven't given up on them yet.
Any way...hope you can have a little patience with someone wanting to get familiar and possibly buy the cad/cam software that you are so obviously using. Any help and advise you could offer would be greatly appreciated...have a great day
Richard
Enough, 2 years ago or so I was a total noob (I am still just a hobbyist). There are many aspects of CAD/CAM to learn. This isnt and or shouldnt be free. Personally I took the class when it came thru town (with Sorin). At the time I thought it was expensive however it was very informative and thorough. Did I learn everything I needed for successful machining? No. I do however produce better results than before and all for less than 1500.00 for V23 & V24 plus classes. Take time to learn it. It will be different than everyone elses, not necessarily better or worse just different. It was my first package and everything else seems odd (Mastercam, Alibre and CamBam). If I took my time to learn each or any of those, I am sure they would perform well. I too hate BC sales techniques and have been vocal about it but lets move on.
Lol...I agree. I 'm trying to move on to get some good responses from people about their experiences from dealing with bobcad/cam and their claims. I'll post a thread in an an attempt to clean things up.
Besides the sales tactics, what problems are you having running the program?
Lol...how can I say it with out getting this started all over again...hmmmm
As i've said in previous posts I am noooooooob and don't know squat about this.
I have demo v24...but have no idea of what I'm looking at much less how to use it. no information for begining users with out buying the training cd's that BC want to sell me for $249.00. Heck...if I knew basics i could figure out if I liked/wanted their software and I'd buy their 10 disc training package. I would just like some way of somewhat know a basic understanding og what im looking at and how those basics work.
My problem is Im a hands on learner, I need detailed pictures at least.I guess the best thing for me to do is take a college introduction class of sorts before I buy anything from anyone.
unfortunately I'm a milling/cad idiot and with what I feel is rheir country club members only attitude, Im much like the starving hobo at christmas looking through a a window with my hands and face pressed up against the glass while drooling watching a family eat christmas dinner...wow what a picture Lol...
I am watching sorins training videos now but seem over my head...have to let them sink in for a while
Sebastion,
Here are some tips.....
You need to ask some questions and give some information about what you are after... Creating multiple threads about your disatisfaction with training materials for YOU, wont get you much information.
What Noob questions are not being answered? "What is a CNC machine and how do I put a tool into it and by the way, what tool do I use..." or "What is an ARC or a LINE and what does CONNECTED mean..." or "Wht does EXTRUDE mean..."
The "Purchased" training materials wont be answering questions like this either. Although they can be derived from the training materials provided..
You know, "YOUTUBE" is a great source of information for even the simplist questions.. You will find videos of everythiing from begining CAD/CAM to the most advanced maching going on today...
You can ask questions here too like: "Whats the basic process?" And get answers like "Create CAD... Generate toolpath... Generate Code... Send to Machine..." And then expound on those types of answers...
But, "I know NOTHING, except nothing gives me any info that I need...." Probably wont get you much...
This is too funny.
I can certainly understand your pain. You are excited and ready to dive in head first "that is a good thing!" but you are smart enough to know that there is a little more to it than the sales demos show you. This I can assure you is true with just about every single cad/cam package out there.
My advise would be to start with the basics. First learn your tools "the machine" any programmer worth spit should know at least the basics of the process he is actually programming for. Second learn how to read the machine code. Take the manual and learn the G&M "G code and "M"achine function code". Learn how to write a simple program with a text editor and run it on the machine. If you are still as excited about it at that point then move on to the CAD/CAM world. Cad/Cam is not a magic wand it is only a tool to increase efficiency "hence if you suck your programs will also". I would suggest taking a class in mechanical drawing and also a basic Autocad class. This will give you the basics of Cad design and the fundamental building blocks to be a proficient CAM programmer. After that take a class in 3D solid modeling "if you are planning on doing machining". After all of that you should be well on your way to start learning 3D CAM. And at this point you will understand a little bit more of what the different CAD/CAM programs offer.
I take a lot of my talents for granted but I never disregard the things I had to learn.
Possible help. To get over the stress of being a Noooob as you put it, try to learn something else first.
Not that it is the best, but think about learning Sketchup (sketchup.google.com), it is free for doing most normal things, especially learning. Lots of tutorials, lots of help.
If you aren't wanting to go that way, the $250 for the CD training isn't to bad. Imagine the number of hours you would waste without it. Even if it is say 25 hours of play (probably more) you are just paying $10/hour for instruction. Also, if you have a cell phone plan that you don't max out (I use almost none of what I pay for) calling non-800#s isn't to bad, especially if they don't put you on hold for additional assistance.
I worked for a company that did phone systems and the 'auto-attendant' feature (press 1 for x dept, press 2 for y dept, etc) could be set up to be an 'expert system', but it takes more time to program those well than it does to train the customer many time... I hate them personally, but just my opinion.
If you can find a class that really teaches you CAD or CNC, it is going to cost a lot more than $250 (tuition, books, software, gas to get there, snacks after a late night at the 'lab' ... stuff adds up).
I am still a noob, used to do paper, triangles, and slip-stick drafting, but that was before I got my CompSci degree. Now getting back into it is a pretty stiff learning curve, even if I do still understand the 3D methodology. The details are pretty daunting.
I started BobCadCam about a year ago with v23. The learning curve is definitely steep. The training DVDs help a bit here and there but the most helpful source comes from the Bobcad forum.
Like what Burr said, post your questions with as much details on what you intend to achieve, folks like Burr and the rest will chim in to help. They've helped me quite a bit, from Cad to Cam to even pointers in machining and tooling.
I started with zero on both software and machining. And maybe that's giving me lesser frustration as compared with the others who already know machining. I'm also only a hobbyist - no time pressure or jobs to rush. I asked as I move along, playing with the software, and ask more questions. I don't really care if I sounded silly or absolutely stupid with my questions; if I don't know, I ask. you know what? The folks in the forum replied!
Extending the spirit of sharing, I threw in as much help to others as I could, locally.
I'm still a newbie even with the latest acquisition of v24. I'm still asking my questions. There are still times of frustration, especially on the cad side. So used to drawing and changing things with solidworks type of interface. But I believe to take the first step first by acquiring one software within my budget and work at it. Start off with simple projects.
After a while, new knowledge of the software is easier to acquire as some basic would have been learnt.
I may be posting totally out of the context of this thread but thought of sharing my thoughts of starting totally zero to the little I gained along the way.
One final thing, when dealing with the sales guy, squeeze them as hard as you can. I got my v24 with almost everything in v23 at less than 1/2 the price.
Regards,
Wong
Last edited by wongster; 08-08-2011 at 07:05 PM.
" "only target already established "knowledgeable" users. "They don't seem to care about those like my self "
- Not caring is not the issue here.
As a beginner the machining portion needs to be learned apart from the CAD/CAM system.
The Videos, and written documents address using the software.
There are a few good books that address general CNC machining , this is an entire subject onto itself.
I would strongly recommend approaching these as two different subjects , Imagine if the manual and training material that came with a doctors x-ray or cat scan machine included information on how to be a Doctor and preform surgeries for Newbies. (Scary thought.. )
I would recommend this book CNC Programming Handbook, Third Edition
http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Handbook-Third-Peter-Smid/dp/0831133473]Amazon.com: CNC Programming Handbook, Third Edition (9780831133474): Peter Smid: Books
The biggest mistake I see from people new to CNC machining is not learning how the machine works or how to program it.
A CAD/CAM system is like a calculator , you will need to understand what is is your trying to accomplish prior to using it. CAD/CAM software will only assist with machining. Much like if you use a finance calculator you should probably first understand finance.
If the guides for the CAD/CAM system were to include general CNC machining practice they would end up as an entire set of encyclopedias.
It is not that BobCAD or any CAD/CAM system do not care about new users, its that the information needed for each user is extensive and different based on the products being manufactured by the end user.
The best recommendation I can make to anyone new to CNC is to learn in the following order.
1. Read the machine manual.
2. Learn about general practice for CNC machining.
3. Learn about tooling & fixturing.
4. Learn how to write basic programs using g-code.
5. Learn how to use CAD and CAD/CAM.
6. Learn how to better write programs using Macros and Para-metrics & Sub routines.
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