questions for bf20, bf16 type mill owners...

[ihavenofish]

so i had been looking for a larger mill, but have since found a solution for the one part i needed the extra travel for, so instead im looking into the bf manual mills. id be using it as manual for a short amount of time, then converting to servos.

trouble is, im not sure which to get. the bf16 is $600, the bf20 is $950, and the bf20l long travel i havent found, but theres alot of weiss type versions for $1200 range. these are not opti branded machines, but they seem identical at least as far as the photos and specs go. the opti ones im looking at right now are from penn tool. if anyone knows a canadian supplier (toronto) let me know as well.

http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/pr...ategoryID=6692
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/pr...ategoryID=6133

the travels of each suit me fine, so the bigger ones are a bonus, but not a necessity. what im concerned with is rigidity and the quality of spindle bearings.

so if you own either of these (or a weiss, busybee, etc), let me know what you think of them in general.

also i have some specific questions:

- what are the column dimensions on the bf16?
- what is the diameter of the quill cylinder on either machine? want to know how large a replacement spindle could be dropped in.

merci

[chalky]

The diameter of the quill cylinder on my Weiss WMD20/25L ( like a BF20 ) is 44mm. It has an MT3 taper but MT2 is the norm for WMD20Ls and BF20s. I believe it is also possible to get an R8 spindle taper kit. My machine is labelled as a WMD25L but its not really, nor is it a standard WMD20L. I think Weiss tried out a few of the WMD25L improvements on a stock WMD20L, and sold a few of them mislabelled as WMD25Ls before producing the real thing. There are quite a few minor variations of these mills; mine has a spindle speed readout and z axis dro, both of which I find quite useful.
I've had my Weiss WMD20/25L for around three years and its performed flawlessly - I'm very impressed. That means a lot as I'm a nit picking perfectionist. I particularly like the fact that the spindle to table height is constant to less than 0.02mm over the entire travel envelope. Its also a very rigid machine for its size, with very little backlash, so I never think twice about climb milling. Maybe I was just lucky, but I don't think so as the rest of the machine is up to the same standards. Its possible to argue until the cows come home as to exactly which is the best make of chinese small machine tool, but no one can deny that Weiss are bl**dy good machines.

[ihavenofish]

Originally Posted by chalky The diameter of the quill cylinder on my Weiss WMD20/25L ( like a BF20 ) is 44mm. It has an MT3 taper but MT2 is the norm for WMD20Ls and BF20s. I believe it is also possible to get an R8 spindle taper kit. My machine is labelled as a WMD25L but its not really, nor is it a standard WMD20L. I think Weiss tried out a few of the WMD25L improvements on a stock WMD20L, and sold a few of them mislabelled as WMD25Ls before producing the real thing. There are quite a few minor variations of these mills; mine has a spindle speed readout and z axis dro, both of which I find quite useful. I've had my Weiss WMD20/25L for around three years and its performed flawlessly - I'm very impressed. That means a lot as I'm a nit picking perfectionist. I particularly like the fact that the spindle to table height is constant to less than 0.02mm over the entire travel envelope. Its also a very rigid machine for its size, with very little backlash, so I never think twice about climb milling. Maybe I was just lucky, but I don't think so as the rest of the machine is up to the same standards. Its possible to argue until the cows come home as to exactly which is the best make of chinese small machine tool, but no one can deny that Weiss are bl**dy good machines.

cool. thats a good review, thanks. are you sure about the quill diametre? im looking at photos of (in this case an opti) and the bf20 quill has to be at minimum 55mm, maybe 60mm. just going on its size relative to the mt2 tool holder which is 18mm or so at the spindle bore.

[chalky]

Yeh, sorry. 44mm is the diameter of the spindle end. The quill diameter is 60mm.

[ihavenofish]

Originally Posted by chalky Yeh, sorry. 44mm is the diameter of the spindle end. The quill diameter is 60mm.

ooh, thats actually perfect. so ive decided that its worth the money to just get the 20lv. more useful, better for conversion, still small enough to carry around by one person (in 3 parts).

now i have to decide which brand, and find out where to actually get it.

where did you get yours? edit: nm, youre in the uk.

[chalky]

I split my machine down into four parts to get it into my workshop single handed. The base, the table, the head, and the column - all about 30kg each. Its pretty easy to get the machine into bits for moving around. The four cap head bolts that hold the column to the base are done up very tight so you need to slip a length of steel tubing onto the hex key when you undo them. You can't get enough leverage to loosen the bolts with the hex key alone. Also make sure that you don't lose the little brass inserts that go between the gib locking screws and the tapered gibs when you take the table off. I got my machine from a company called Amadeal in the UK. Its worth trying to get hold of a Weiss mill if you can. The Busybee CT129 looks like a Weiss machine but it only has a short table. The Weiss WMD20L has a 700mm wide table.

[ihavenofish]

Originally Posted by chalky I split my machine down into four parts to get it into my workshop single handed. The base, the table, the head, and the column - all about 30kg each. Its pretty easy to get the machine into bits for moving around. The four cap head bolts that hold the column to the base are done up very tight so you need to slip a length of steel tubing onto the hex key when you undo them. You can't get enough leverage to loosen the bolts with the hex key alone. Also make sure that you don't lose the little brass inserts that go between the gib locking screws and the tapered gibs when you take the table off. I got my machine from a company called Amadeal in the UK. Its worth trying to get hold of a Weiss mill if you can. The Busybee CT129 looks like a Weiss machine but it only has a short table. The Weiss WMD20L has a 700mm wide table.

thanks.

the busybee is not a weiss i dont think, though very similar so im wary of getting a lookalike that may not have the same quality. a company in quebec seems to carry much of the line, but doesnt specifically list the 25v. they have the regular 20v. their price is about $350 more than busybee, but it comes with a full tooling kit including the stand, a vise and a collet chuck and clamps. busybee seems to be a bare machine and the stand is $170 - likewise the lathemaster which is $1200us for the bare 25v.

edit, i take it back, the busy bee may be a weiss after all. looking at some videos that show it more clearly. even though they seem to cost more thst offset by no shipping as they are not far from my house. hmmm.... ive read you can buy an r8 replacement spindle and a table extension for these. maybe this might be a good bet. i should go look at it in person next week.

[chalky]

The wmd25lv is heavier than the wmd20lv, has a slightly more powerful motor, and a dedicated estop button but there don't seem to be any other differences. You can see it on the Weiss website. The WMD25LV doesn't seem to be very available yet - I haven't found anyone other than Amadeal in the UK that sells them.

[ihavenofish]

Originally Posted by chalky The wmd25lv is heavier than the wmd20lv, has a slightly more powerful motor, and a dedicated estop button but there don't seem to be any other differences. You can see it on the Weiss website. The WMD25LV doesn't seem to be very available yet - I haven't found anyone other than Amadeal in the UK that sells them.

lathemaster sells the wmd25lv. i think the only difference from the 20lv is the motor and spindle. the weight addition easily comes from that alone. its only a few KG.

machine tool warehouse aparently sells opti lathes, which im also interested in. ive emailed him to ask if he also can get the mills.

i also found something curious, for those who make custom machines. wiess offers the 16v, 20v, 20lv and 30v cross tables alone.

[chalky]

A few extra WMD25 kilos also come from the controller arm casting. The control box is bolted directly to the headstock on the WMD20. I've just got a Weiss WM210VG 8x16 lathe. Quite a step up from my mini lathe. I'd like to have got a bigger one but I don't really have enough room in my workshop and getting a 150kg+ lathe into position would be a problem too. Did you see the cross tables on the Weiss website? They have quite a range there.

[ihavenofish]

Originally Posted by chalky A few extra WMD25 kilos also come from the controller arm casting. The control box is bolted directly to the headstock on the WMD20. I've just got a Weiss WM210VG 8x16 lathe. Quite a step up from my mini lathe. I'd like to have got a bigger one but I don't really have enough room in my workshop and getting a 150kg+ lathe into position would be a problem too. Did you see the cross tables on the Weiss website? They have quite a range there.

the 210 is exactly what im looking at. except the opti non variable speed version. its $1299cdn ($1200us) for the full setup including stand and all the accessories.

can you do some more measurmensts on the mill for me please? id like to know the length of the base, width of the base, and the spacing of the holes. my intent is to bolt it down to a small granite plate for some mass and stability.

also id like to know the height to the top of the column, and distance from the spindle centre to the column dovetail (without bellows).

when i get around to cnc'ing the wmd25, ill be turning the spindle into a servo driven belt drive, so it will do rigid tapping. i will be making a bt30 spindle shaft for it with a spring stack and pneumatic release. from the blow up drawings, a belt drive is kinda tricky. basically have to pull out the gears, remove the quill mechanics, and make an adjustable top bearing insert that will stablize the top of the spindle shaft and put the belt on the outside (top) of the head. be nice to get the thing inside instead, but there seems to be not easy way to do that without heavy modification. i want it to be an easy bolt on assembly.

that likely wont be for some time though.

[chalky]

Base width = 270mm
Base depth = 340mm
Hole spacing = 250mm
Height to top of column = 755mm
Spindle centre to vertical dovetail = 180mm

Forgot to measure the front to back hole spacing, will do it tomorrow. The dimensions for the hole spacing given in the manual are wrong - just as well I measured up the base before drilling the mounting holes in my bench! The spindle to dovetail measurement is from the centre of the spindle to the top of the vertical dovetail. Its probably +/-5mm because I'd have to take off the z axis way protector to get an accurate measurement. I agree the belt drive conversion might be a bit of a challenge, but I think its possible without major reworking if you remove the interruptor wheel for the spindle speed readout.
Are you sure you're looking at a 210 lathe and not the ML200. As far as I know the 210 is pretty new and only available in a variable speed version. Anyway the 210 looks pretty good so far. Its still sitting on the garage floor at the moment as I haven't got the bench in the workshop ready for it yet. I've spun it up and tried everything out with no problems so far. I'll let you know how I get on when I've used it in earnest.