Help with X2 set-up.

[michaelf]

Hi everyone,
This is my first post, and I am new to CNC. I have recently purchased a Seig X2 Mill and would like to go down the CNC path with it. I have been using AutoCad for about 20 yrs, mainly using 2D, so I would stick to that package for the CAD side if things.
I am looking at the #4 kit from CNCFusion, and the Xylotex 4 Axis Drive Box with 269 oz.in. Stepper Motors and Cables, and also Mach 3 software.
One thing I don’t understand is what CAM software I would require to be able to use the fourth axis, at this stage I would only be using it for indexing, I think!! (I am into model RC helicopters and have in mind to make multi blade rotor heads with my set-up when complete).
Vectric Cut2D was one CAM package I was looking at but I am not sure whether it would be suitable for what I want to do.
Please review the above set-up and suggest any improvements or changes that should be made.
Looking forward to your replies.
Michael

[Graham H]

Hi Micheal,

I sucessfully converted my X2 mill to CNC and have been more than happy whith the result. Did mine the hard way without the add on kit. Mine has a ball screw on the Z axis and revised square thread leads on the X and Y axis. I replaced the original (poor) acme lead screws with square thread versions cut on my lathe. I used bronze anti-backlash nuts, also cut on the lathe. It was a lot of trouble and the kit is probably the better way to go.

I use Autocad Vetric2D and Mach3 with the Newfangled wizards. Vetric and Mach3 are great value and very user friendly.

My motor choice was similar to what you are considering but the motor control is all home grown. I have microstepping drives on all 4 axis, PIC based motor controllers and a home built 40VDC regulated power supply.

My latest addition has been a hi-speed spindle which mounts parallel to the main spindle and is driven from the top of the main spindle via a slotted belt pulley. The pulleys were cut using the 4th axis and the Mach3 wizards. It runs 10,500 RPM and is ESSENTIAL for cutting aluminium with small endmills.

This set up gives reliable torque and power with low TIR even on long and complex cuts. I use ER11 collets on the high speed spindle and ER32 on the main spindle. This addition has vastly improved the mills capability, better finish and much higher cutting speeds.

You can do a lot with this setup and it is vastly more capable than a manual mill. Photo attached, I hope.

Hope this helps,

Graham H, Sydney OZ

[Bob Adams]

Hi everyone,
This is my first post, and I am new to CNC. I have recently purchased a Seig X2 Mill and would like to go down the CNC path with it. I have been using AutoCad for about 20 yrs, mainly using 2D, so I would stick to that package for the CAD side if things.
I am looking at the #4 kit from CNCFusion, and the Xylotex 4 Axis Drive Box with 269 oz.in. Stepper Motors and Cables, and also Mach 3 software.
One thing I don’t understand is what CAM software I would require to be able to use the fourth axis, at this stage I would only be using it for indexing, I think!! (I am into model RC helicopters and have in mind to make multi blade rotor heads with my set-up when complete).
Vectric Cut2D was one CAM package I was looking at but I am not sure whether it would be suitable for what I want to do.
Please review the above set-up and suggest any improvements or changes that should be made.
Looking forward to your replies.
Michael

Take a look at my site, this program is for the 4th Axis indexing for Mach 3 Mill:
http://www.cad2gcode.com/pulley
Cheers
Bob

[fretsman]

If you decide to end up using Mach 3, there is a free wizard with that software that is called: Spline and Gear Wizard that should do what you're after (screenshot below).

Hope that helps,
Dave

[michaelf]

Thanks heaps for the replies.
Graham, what size rotary table are you using on your 4th axis, and where did you get it?
I was considering using the Xyloteck 4 axis kit purely because it’s basically plug and play, however it doesn’t seem to be as popular as the build your own kits and I was wondering if there may be some issues with it.
I was also looking at belt drive conversions and notice that there is a three pulley unit that will give you over 8000 rpm on the spindle. Would the original spindle bearings tolerate those revs?
Thanks Bob, very interesting.
Thanks fretsman, it’s surprising how much you miss when you are trying to absorb all this information.
Michael

[Graham H]

Hi Michael,

The rotary table I used is 4" and was bought from Mik Moyle Engineering Supplies who are located in Sydney. This was my second rotary table conversion, the first was using a "SOBA" Indian unit which while low cost, had far too much backlash and play. The version I now have installed is the same as a "Phase II" table, although not branded as such. It is solid and can be used in machining operations, not just for indexing. The chuck is a 3 inch, 4 jaw independent (Chinese) that has been modified for direct mounting on the table when required.

I cannot give any information on the various conversion kits. Generally speaking good ball screw lead screws are the way to go, not only for the lower backlash but for the much lower friction losses. My Z-axis can hit 2000mm/m (ball screw), compared to 500-700 mm/m on the X and Y axis using the same stepper motors. Backlash on my X and Y axis can match good ball screws and can give +/- .0015" repeatability.

8000 RPM on the main spindle is probably too fast for good bearing life, others have suggested 4500 RPM max. I don't know exactly what the specs on the original bearings are. Several belt drive conversions are available for 4500 RPM, which is already a big improvement on 2500 RPM.

As I said I am very happy with my solution, however, constructing the high speed spindle is not entirely trivial. Mine uses dual angular contact ball races rated for 16,000 plus RPM. Bottom bearing is fixed and the top allowed to float but provides for some pre-load.

As Fretman notes there is a free wizard in Mach3 which is quite useful for gearcutting etc.. The Newfangled wizards also include a gearcutting routine. If you get Mach3, get the Newfangled Wizards suite - well worth the extra cost.

Graham H

[michaelf]

Thanks Graham, Carba-tec in Adelaide have a 100mm Rotary Table for around $200, I'll have a look at that and see how much backlash it has. I think you are right in saying 4500 RPM would be the limit for the original bearings. That’s interesting about the Mach 3 Wizards, should be all I need.
Thanks again,
Michael

[Regnar]

I have the same setup that you want to do and I am very happy with it. You can see my video here. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ient=firefox-a The only difference is that I have upgraded the ballnuts and have helicals for the couplers. I can easily hold .oo1 all day long. Some things I would suggest is a good enclosure, a belt drive, and I find my powerdraw bar to be great addition to the machine. "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H4Br40055g"]YouTube - MOV02731

If you like vectrics software then you will really like this. Its called Wrapper. It is availible for free. Not only can you do simple things like gears but you can also wrap text around something or do pictures and so forth. I played around with the software but never made a 4th axis. http://www.vectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2920

[michaelf]

Regnar, what an impressive setup you have.
When you say you have upgraded the ball nuts do you mean that you have gone for the “Pre-Loaded” ball nuts, or something else?
Have you have replaced the “Lovejoy” couplers with “Helical” couplers, if so what are the advantages?
I am still confused about the forth axis and what it requires, obviously you need a rotary table, Mach 3 has the ability to control it, but I understand you need a little more than the Vectric Cut2d, is there a need to go to Cut3d or does the “Wrapper” cover it, or can you get away with just using the wizards in Mach 3?
Michael

[hoss2006]

I couldn't recommend xylotex, very touchy drives with no circuit protection, I know the hard way.
The g540 would do much better, if you could get it over there fairly cheap.
A keling package with 318 motors would be optimum.
I'm about to buy MeshCAM for doing 4th axis work, the demo looks as easy to use as Vectrics Cut3D and it's pretty cheap.
I've done some basic stuff with my old 4th axis programming by hand, timing pulleys, engraving etc.
Plan to get much more complicated with the new trunnion table so software help is a must.
If you looking for a few project ideas, I have a couple.
Good luck, Hoss

[michaelf]

Hoss, thanks for the very honest reply, I had heard complaints previously about Xylotex, but thought that may have been in the past. I had looked at Geko, and read some posts about it and got frightened off when somebody wired it up wrong and smoked the controller! So I started looking at plug and play units, that when I came up with Xylotex. However after looking at the G540 it looks like most of the work has been done, with the Keling package I just need a couple of other bits to complete the setup, which I’m sure I’ll be able to muddle my way through.
I have visited your site several times in the past; it’s unbelievable what you have achieved. Still not sure about the 4th axis, I will get the stepper and drive for it but will put it on the back burner until I’m much further down the track.
Thanks, Michael.

[michaelf]

Hoss, I see that you have DRO's on your machine, are they really necessary when Mach 3 has a similar readout?