Best route for setup - X1 CNC to bigger upgrade later

[LUCKY13]

I just aquired a X1 cheap,cheap. Its in new shape and I have torn it down,cleaned, lapped ways, ajusted, tramed the head,ect,ect and the little thing is really doing beyound what I expected after working on it.

I want to CNC it and have been researching and I can see many different routes that could be taken. I think the G540 and right motors would be a good way to go ( I have seen this recamendation) but I have upgrades on my mind for later on. This is where I dont know what to do.


I do plan to buy a bigger mill a little later, I would like to do this X1 in a way that I could atleast move most of the CNC equipment over to a new mill when the time comes. I dont know if this is a good thing to be trying to do, and if it would work what parts to try and buy that will work on the later project. I do want to get the most out of this X1 even though its limited. I am dissabled so I really cant afford to just build two machines out right and I cant afford to just buy a bigger mill and CNC it right now. Although I do have enough budget to pull off some good parts, I have about two thousand dollars to work with but thats it atleast for awail. When the time comes I am hoping to buy a Industrial Hobbies mill, I know thats a big jump from the X1 and trying to buy parts that are going to work across the board is not going to be easy. I also have to think about software and even tooling so I have to look at the big picture here. What ever I do I want to be cutting parts with the amount of money I have, and I would like to be doing 4 axes also.



Just a few question myself ( this is my first CNC prodject so I am a little lost here even though I have put a lot of time into research , and will do more research) .


Can I run two mills off of the same electronics ( drivers and software )? Even if it envolves so time and resetting up to switch between the two machines. Might not even be a need for the smaller mill after I upgrade and be best to sale it or turn it back into a manual, but if it can be done then maybe its worth doing that also.


I expect its goign to be very hard to have motors that will work on a X1, then swap them over to a bigger mill. But on the electronics (drivers mainly ) can a big enough driver be used that will run the smaller motors but still pull off running the bigger mill motors ? I guess power supply is another part that could fall into this area.



Just getting my feet wet here, hope to come up with a plan and start buying and working on the mill the middle of next week. Any thoughts or ideas would be great in the subject. I have seen some pretty impressive little mills on here and I am sure I will get into doing plenty of mods to the X1 as I go. With my budget (being dissabled ) I will have to stick with the X1 for about a year but I dont see me being able to just build a complete new bigger mill then. I am sure I will have to save to even buy the mill itself and then save more to even change over what I have and buy the extra needed parts when the time comes for a upgrade. So any parts I can buy that will serve me now and then will be a plus.


I am atleats hoping that the drivers, power supply, computor,software, encoders and maybe limit/homing switches could be bought in a way that they could move on to my upgrade later. I dont think the motors could be done this way , could they ?


Well lets here any thoughts or ideas before we go any farther, who knows what some of you guys can come up with here.



Thanks Jess

[TOTALLYRC]

I just aquired a X1 cheap,cheap. Its in new shape and I have torn it down,cleaned, lapped ways, ajusted, tramed the head,ect,ect and the little thing is really doing beyound what I expected after working on it.

I want to CNC it and have been researching and I can see many different routes that could be taken. I think the G540 and right motors would be a good way to go ( I have seen this recamendation) but I have upgrades on my mind for later on. This is where I dont know what to do.


I do plan to buy a bigger mill a little later, I would like to do this X1 in a way that I could atleast move most of the CNC equipment over to a new mill when the time comes. I dont know if this is a good thing to be trying to do, and if it would work what parts to try and buy that will work on the later project. I do want to get the most out of this X1 even though its limited. I am dissabled so I really cant afford to just build two machines out right and I cant afford to just buy a bigger mill and CNC it right now. Although I do have enough budget to pull off some good parts, I have about two thousand dollars to work with but thats it atleast for awail. When the time comes I am hoping to buy a Industrial Hobbies mill, I know thats a big jump from the X1 and trying to buy parts that are going to work across the board is not going to be easy. I also have to think about software and even tooling so I have to look at the big picture here. What ever I do I want to be cutting parts with the amount of money I have, and I would like to be doing 4 axes also.



Just a few question myself ( this is my first CNC prodject so I am a little lost here even though I have put a lot of time into research , and will do more research) .


Can I run two mills off of the same electronics ( drivers and software )? Even if it envolves so time and resetting up to switch between the two machines. Might not even be a need for the smaller mill after I upgrade and be best to sale it or turn it back into a manual, but if it can be done then maybe its worth doing that also.


I expect its goign to be very hard to have motors that will work on a X1, then swap them over to a bigger mill. But on the electronics (drivers mainly ) can a big enough driver be used that will run the smaller motors but still pull off running the bigger mill motors ? I guess power supply is another part that could fall into this area.



Just getting my feet wet here, hope to come up with a plan and start buying and working on the mill the middle of next week. Any thoughts or ideas would be great in the subject. I have seen some pretty impressive little mills on here and I am sure I will get into doing plenty of mods to the X1 as I go. With my budget (being dissabled ) I will have to stick with the X1 for about a year but I dont see me being able to just build a complete new bigger mill then. I am sure I will have to save to even buy the mill itself and then save more to even change over what I have and buy the extra needed parts when the time comes for a upgrade. So any parts I can buy that will serve me now and then will be a plus.


I am atleats hoping that the drivers, power supply, computor,software, encoders and maybe limit/homing switches could be bought in a way that they could move on to my upgrade later. I dont think the motors could be done this way , could they ?


Well lets here any thoughts or ideas before we go any farther, who knows what some of you guys can come up with here.



Thanks Jess

Hi Jess.
I am relatively new to posting to the zone but I have been reading it and working quietly in the backround for years. Let me take a stab at your questions.Somebody will correct me if I am way off base on any of these.

1. An industrail hobbies mill is a big leap over an x1. A good motor for the IH would probablly dwarf the x1 so that will probablly rule out the use of the same motors for each machine. I don't see this as a show stopper because when it comes time to sell the x1, even it has nothing but the motors attached, you can sell it as cnc ready or at least cnc capable.

2.Running both machines, one at a time, is really no big deal with Mach3. All you do is set up different profiles, one for each machine. You could in theory run dozens of machines up to whatever limit that Mach3 might have for storing profiles. I have a least 6 on my laptop as we speak because I use it to test stuff and then I put the machine on a dedicated computer because I like to run more than 1 at a time.
All you would need to do is make sure during the setup that the motor wires have quick disconnect capability.The only other considerations would be the motor current setting would have to be changed to match each machines motors. Shouldn't be too hard to set up different resistors and with switches make it a 2 second job. Just be ultra sure it is fool proof. it won't hurt the big motors on the little motor setting but you will and I repeat will fry the little motors on the big motor setting. With a little inginuity, it might even be possible to rig up a switch that also lights up an indicator on either machine to indicate which one is selected or even disable the motor from running unless that machine is selected.

3. If your budget from right now is $2k you should be able to get a bunch of stuff and buy it right the first time. Since you have taken the machine apart and all the other stuff, it looks like you pretty capable.
I would suggest the Gecko 203v for there protection against misswiring of all sorts and the new feature of morphing from micro to full step on the fly based on motor speed. This means you will get the most from whatever stepper that you choose.

4 Take your pick of breakout boards. I personally have only used the Candcnc mini I/O version 3 which seems to have been dropped, but their new ubob looks like a real winner with its port stretching capabilites it should prevent you from having to go with 2 pp ports for the big machine.

5.I think that everything other than the motors and limit switches can be used on both machines. Somebody can chime in here but I think the x1 setup as cnc ready with the motors attached and limit switches and zero backlash of some sort would sell for more than enough to make up for what you leave attached to it.

6. power supply. buy one that is the right size, volts and amps, for the big mill and just buy motors for the x1 that can run on that voltage. Many people wind up getting motors that we run on too low of a voltage and regret it later. Having more amps for the little motors isn't a problem because that is what the current linit resistors do, they keep the motor from drawing too much current.

7.If you go steppers (easier to setup and less expensive) then you won't need encoders.

8. In my opinion the limit switches would be so lo cost as to not be worth moving to the other machine.

9. I would talk to industrial hobbies and see what there recomendations for motors would be. They can tell you what kind of power you should be using to get 1. top performance and 2. acceptable performance if the first one is too costly.

10. It might be possible to use a triple stack nema 23 at max voltage for the IH mill and then use it with the right current settings and limit your rapids in the software for the x1. Just by looking at the IH mill and knowing what you will want to cut on it I would personally use double stack Nema 34's but that is just an of the cuff opinion on that. IH will probably chime in and correct me.

I have been suprised by the kind of power that my triple stack 23 puts out on 40v on my rounter on the z axis, lifting 2 roto zips and a large aluminum plate. I am upgrading to a 50v ps that I just purchased off of ebay to make it go faster. Based on its inductance it is maxed at 82v.

Thats all I can think of now. I woke up to the sound of a light rain am I am listing to it as I type. Time to go back to bed.
Mike

[jalessi]

Jess,

Maybe you might just use what you need for the X1 and save your money until you get a larger mill.

You shoulld be able to recoupe the majority of your expense when you sell the X1

The high end parts might even drop in price in the next year or two when you finally decide to upgrade.

The G251 Gecko's may be on sale through one of the Gecko resellers.

Or maybe a HobbyCNC drive if you really are on a tight budget $99.00 for four axis.
http://www.hobbycnc.com/products/hob...er-board-kits/

There are several stepper vendors selling inexpensive nema 23 motors

http://www.hobbycnc.com/products/stepper-motors/

http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA23Motor.html

Three steppers will cost about $150.00

A inexpensive $30.00 opto isolated breakout board if you decide on the G251's

http://tinyurl.com/6dyqg3

And a inexpensive power supply KL-350-48 48V/7.3A
110V/230V $59.95

http://www.kelinginc.net/SwitchingPowerSupply.html

The stepper mount's for a X1 are very simple and you should be able to fabricate them yourself on your X1.


Jeff...

[sansbury]

I would CNC the X1 on the dirt-cheap and save your money for later. The only thing I could see carrying up would be the motor drivers, if you went with something like full-size Geckos rather than the G540, which is probably on the small side for anything much larger than an X3. The alternative to this would be a HobbyCNC board with a 24V PSU, which is what I use on my X1, and it works great, cost around $100.

I would be wary of expecting to cash in a lot of the value of any parts other than the mill or major tooling. My experience selling these is that you can expect to get 75-80% for good-condition iron and 50% or less for everything else. Also I think we are going to start seeing the KX1's hit the market now that HF is carrying them. $3000 for a finished machine with all the trimmings is not bad considering how many guys spend $2000+ on an X2 conversion that will probably deliver similar capabilities in the end.

[cadmonkey]

I agree with basically everything posted above - mainly the route TOTALLYRC listed. Get parts that will cross over as much as you can and get what you need for the X1 and don't splurge on a higher level than is really realistic for the X1 that won't be able to transfer over to the IH. The biggest ? is if you want to go stepper or servo. If you go servo you may be able to move drives over but I am not sure - I don't have a lot of info on servo setups that are true servo systems. If you're going steppers than the 203V and a linear powersupply (homebuilt preferably) are a great basis for both machines. Doing the linear supply if you do a little research on what the X1 requires and what the IH will need later, you can choose a voltage that is scalable and simply buy another transformer later and double the voltage (ie - run a 40V 15 to 20A system on the X1 and then when you are ready for the IH add another transformer and capacitor [size the caps for the final target voltage] and you're ready to go - you might also be able to choose a toroid that has enough of a current rating to run the transformer secondaries in parallel on the X1 and when you move to the IH run the transformer in series - that route would save buying another transformer later, but require a really high VA rating to provide the increased amperage you'll need later for the IH - remember current is like the tank of gas in the car you can never really have too much, voltage is more like the octane rating). Other than the drive system you should be able to transfer over all the other electronics & software over since they don't care what they are hooked up to, it's more whether you want a higher quality limit or home switch for example that can fit on the IH but wouldn't fit reasonably on an X1. $2000 is a large budget for the CNC system in reality, especially if you design your own mounts and ballscrew setup instead of buying a kit - I forget what the tally for my X3 was but I don't think everything (including mill) was over 3k (it's posted in a thread by teyber somewhere here) and you'll have shorter screws, less material for the mounts, etc. I think you've got a good start. My advice would be plan and research before clicking the ORDER button Having the whole system laid out and planned will increase your budget in effect by minimizing the amount of "Oh fudge!"s you run into I bought my mill and then spent several weeks planning everything out and then designing and making the conversion parts and wiring everything up. The only backtrack was when I scored a free industrial grade enclosure for my controller and went back and redesigned the layout of the control box - well worth the effort I might add.

I agree that you shouldn't expect a great return on used items later with all the options out there and the presumed ease of a store bought CNC setup, unless you go the Hoss route and turn it into a real freak and can target it's uniqueness. Either go dirt cheap on the X1 conversion and save for later or buy now with research allowing you to step up later.

Good luck and keep posting your plans/ideas - the threads with the most information and plans get more attention it seems. People are always looking for a starting point for their work (as are you ) so they tend to get a lot of attention. Like the first response said - you already did a lot so you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and aren't asking the "what steppers do I buy" or "tell me exactly what I need" so you'll get great reception.

Several people have expressed appreciation for the information I shared about my X3 conversion so have a look at my website for any inspiration - there are pics, plans and some explanations and write ups there.

Greg

[LUCKY13]

Hey guys, I really want to thank you for you replies, it helps a lot and has me thinking. I am in no way going to get in a hurry with this, although I must admit I excited to get started. The thing is I keep researching and looking fo rthe right direction to do me the best for what I have to work with.



The more I think about this I believe I might be better off to step things up a little and build my own mill and just sale the X1. When I start adding things up like upgrading the base and X table of the X1, then maybe adding a better motor to the spindle it seems I can come close to starting out from scratch and building my own. I expect this will push my budget a little, but if it take me a couple month to add any needed money in the end it should pay off with a better mill that will serve my purpose better. It should also help hold off the need to even upgrade to a bigger mill latter.


I will have to go back and read the info on the power supplies (thanks Cadmonkey) and put some more research into this. This seems like a critical point of the build that I could help the system run much better and build to soot both machines when the time comes, if I do it right. I am putting hours in every day with research ( one advantage to being dissabled is time) so that I can maximize my build and get the most out of it.

I really like what Leeway has done with his build with the 80/20 machine with the treadmill motor on the spindle. Just by chance I aquired a treadmill with a (120vdc 6600 rpm) treadmill motor and controls last night for free ( gotta love when people throw things out) . It even has a build in RPM sensor and overheating circuit to shut it down in case of overheating, plus surpintine pulleys and belt. This thing is a brut on torque. When I sale the X1 that will pay for a R8 spindle box from the Little Machine Shop and maybe buy me a few end mills or something else I will need. A like new X1 that cuts good should bring 2 bills I would hope. The one thing about using this setup and controls it only goes in one direction so I would not be able to use it for tapping. Is there other reasons I would need the spindle to reverse ? Even if so , it seems I could get by pretty good with it for awail until something else came along at a deal.


I will go with Gecko's for drives, but I am going to step it up from the G540 (Thanks TottallyRC ) and go with the bigger drivers. I am just not sure on the stepper verses servo thing. I really cant see a lot of money diference between the two (once you tsrat buying bigger), more money yes, but not crazy amounts more. I can build my own motor mounts and much more with the help of a good friend that has a nice machine shop at his home. He is going to help with the machine build so this will help make reaching for a built machine much easier. We can even machine our own screws and setup bearing blocks and such.


I am wanting to get around 14" to 24" X travel and around 8" to 12" on the Y. The size will depend on what size slides and blocks I can score on Ebay. I will try and buy them and Ballscrews to work with each other before buying any parts for the machine itself.

This is going to push the budget going this route, but my son has agreed to chip in also so we can end up with a much more capable machine. Linear guides and ball screws should help make a faster and more accurate machine and a X2 spindle box with the treadmill motor should give the power to cut pretty good for us. Plus the R8 spindle will be cheaper buying tools now, and they will work with a bigger mill when the time comes. Who knows may find a deal on a bigger machine one day, If I can get anough table travel with this build I may not even need a bigger one later.


Finding a good deal on linear guides and ball screw might take me a little bit of time here so that might hold me up until I get that squared away. I have the stanless steel to build a control panel but I am not sure what is need in it. I also already have a box for the drives and power supply. I know the info is in this forum somewhere but its so big now I cant seem to find what I am looking for, but for a control panel where do I find the info to start researching what I will need inside of it? I already have a nice joystick but I need to find out what else will be needed in it.


Homing and limit switches I am going to be able to get free ( my son works for a printer/copier store and does the repair work for them) . I am sure many switches and such I will be able to get also, I just need to find out what types. I also found a big box with many contacters and switches that came off some equipment (seems one of them might make a good E-stop) .

I think if I use my head and take some time to run down some parts at a deal I should be able to go this route for not much more than just doing up the X1. I will keep researching and looking for parts to make sure I am not overstepping myself. I just really feel the extra time and money will be worth the end results if I do this right and it will carry me much farther down the road than a X1 build. Linear guide and ball screw size is something I need to figure out, I can go off of Leeways specs but there may be other sizes that will work good and knowing all this will help when looking for deals.


Well off to do more reading and research, thanks for all responses from everyone.


Thanks Jess