A super newbie needs advice on which machine

[bellec]

Hi all,

I just want to say thanks for looking and I'm looking for some advice. I no absolutely nothing about the CNC vertical mills, but I'm interested in them because I want to start my own business. I want to build some aluminum bodies with heat sinks milled into them. The dimensions will 2" wide x 1" tall x 2" deep out of solid aluminum stock. Eventually I would also like to build a round aluminum body about 35mm in diameter x 30mm deep.

My price range is no more then $10k. Here is what I'm looking at:
CNC Jr. Table Top Mill http://www.cncmasters.com/CNC%20Jr%20Mill.htm
PCNC 1100 http://tormach.com/Product_PCNC_main.html

Do you guys have any other contenders I should be looking out for? Websites please. Also I realize I will be needed many accessories for these machines to do what I want. So what are your thought? Also once I decide to purchase a machine, where can I get trained?

Thanks in advance,
Craig

[tikka308]

Definitely check out Industrial Hobbies (http://www.industrialhobbies.com/). If you're really new to CNC, you should do some more research & reading on this forum (and anywhere on the 'net) and also watch some youtube videos. You'll get better responses from folks here with specific questions.

You'll also need to look into CAD & CAM software, FYI.

[hoss2006]

Of the 2 you listed, the Tormach would be better even if only comparing the Z axis'.
The round column cncjr only has 5 inches of cnc travel from the quill, not ideal,
compared to the tormachs square column with 16.25.
The round column can be repositioned but that's a pain.
Both are MORE than capable to handle making your heat sinks , maybe overkill, just about any other mill used on this site could handle them.
Syil America
Taig
Penntool
to name a few that will save you some cash to buy the extras you'd need to get up and running.
You can get training at a vo-tech in your area perhaps
but here's one of many training books out there.
A Beginner's Guide to CNC
Search amazon for more.
Should be enough to get you rolling, take it slow, there is a LOT to learn with this hobby,
it's gonna take some time but it's so much fun.

[bellec]

Originally Posted by hoss2006 Of the 2 you listed, the Tormach would be better even if only comparing the Z axis'. The round column cncjr only has 5 inches of cnc travel from the quill, not ideal, compared to the tormachs square column with 16.25. The round column can be repositioned but that's a pain. Both are MORE than capable to handle making your heat sinks , maybe overkill, just about any other mill used on this site could handle them. Syil America Taig Penntool to name a few that will save you some cash to buy the extras you'd need to get up and running. You can get training at a vo-tech in your area perhaps but here's one of many training books out there. A Beginner's Guide to CNC Search amazon for more. Should be enough to get you rolling, take it slow, there is a LOT to learn with this hobby, it's gonna take some time but it's so much fun.

Hoss,

Thanks for your comments and other website suggestions! I'll definitely purchase that book ASAP!

[bellec]

Originally Posted by tikka308 Definitely check out Industrial Hobbies (http://www.industrialhobbies.com/). If you're really new to CNC, you should do some more research & reading on this forum (and anywhere on the 'net) and also watch some youtube videos. You'll get better responses from folks here with specific questions. You'll also need to look into CAD & CAM software, FYI.

tikka,

I have been lurking here for about 2 weeks and reading all I can. I've seen a hand full of youtube videos on the tormach machine and it looked very impressive. The machine industrial hobbies has looks cool and right at the upper end of my price point. How does that compare to the Tormach. A complete package from them runs 12,861 and includes this:

Our typical PCNC package is what we recommend for a typical CNC shop start-up. The total cost for this package is $12,861.50 (without shipping). This combination extends the machine to a 4-axis mill, upgrades to an integrated CAD/CAM package, and includes the most popular accessories. The package has the following products:

PCNC 1100 Mill (30204) $6800.00
Deluxe Machine Stand (30297) $1325.00
Lifting Bar (30576) $76.00
Machine Arm (30286) $265.00
4th Axis 8" Table (30289) $1180.00
4th Axis Tailstock 8" (30197) $128.00
3 Jaw Chuck 8" (30291) $253.00
High Speed Spindle Kit (30478) $205.00
5" Machining Vise (30553) $495.00
Jog/Shuttle Controller (30616) $68.50
USB Mini Keyboard (30284) $34.00
Configured PC w/Monitor (30282) $827.00
USB Extension (30279) $18.00
Video Cable Extension (30280) $22.00
CNC Operator's Tool Set (30189) $670.00
TurboCAD Professional (30565) $330.00
TurboCAD - CAM Plug-In (30566) $165.00

Total Cost: $12,861.50

Thanks for responding!

[philbur]

You don't really need all that good stuff for what you intend to do. Here is a trimmed down list:

PCNC 1100 Mill (30204) $6,800.00
High Speed Spindle Kit (30478) $205.00 (good for the fine detail)
Jog/Shuttle Controller (30616) $68.50
CNC Operator's Tool Set (30189) $670.00
TurboCAD Professional (30565) $330.00
TurboCAD - CAM Plug-In (30566) $165.00

Total Cost: $8,238.50

Make your own (simple) stand, buy a cheaper vice and a clamp set. Buy a used PC and cables locally. You still need cutting tools and measuring equipment. You should be in good shape for $10,000. It will eat what you plan to do and is almost certainly over-kill. Also look at the smaller machines at http://www.smithy.com/products.php?cid=11 Possibly not as good a value for your money as the Tormach but cheaper by virtue of not so much over-kill.

Phil

Originally Posted by bellec tikka, I have been lurking here for about 2 weeks and reading all I can. I've seen a hand full of youtube videos on the tormach machine and it looked very impressive. The machine industrial hobbies has looks cool and right at the upper end of my price point. How does that compare to the Tormach. A complete package from them runs 12,861 and includes this:

[sansbury]

The guys above have given some very good answers to your question. They know a lot more than I do about that.

I'm going to go off on a tangent because you said you want to start a business making a product and that's a game I know a little more about. My big question here is whether you've looked at starting out by jobbing the manufacturing part to someone else. At the very least I'd want to make a small run and try selling them to get a better sense of price and volume.

Manufacturing the product yourself may be a good idea if the process is highly specialized and/or if you are customizing them to the buyer. In those cases, the manufacturing process adds a lot of value. If not, then it is simply a cost and you are probably better served finding someone to make them and focus your time selling and marketing product which sadly is how the bills get paid.

[kanton]

Philbur,

Which Smithy machine did you recommend? Your link didn't work for me.

[philbur]

I wasn't recommending any but the 622 and the 516 look to be more than capable of handling your parts.

Another thought:

If you are working in alumnium with small parts and cutters then a key issue is the spindle speed, not necessarily the table size or travels. This then starts to sound like a Taig with a 10,000 rpm spindle.

Others can tell you exactly how suitable it is for your type of work, but it might just be the baseline that you should compare the others against. It's the lowest cost, possibly the best suited to your work and has lots of support. Sounds like a possible win-win. Check it out carefully.

Phil

Originally Posted by kanton Philbur, Which Smithy machine did you recommend? Your link didn't work for me.

[Stepper Monkey]

Spindle speed is important for using smaller bits, and as was pointed out the Taig is indeed well capable of doing the work required, however I don't know that I would recommend it for one reason alone. If it is in a manufacturing environment where speed of production matters, I would go with a much bigger machine if you can at all afford it. Even if the parts come out looking the same, the cycle time isn't going to be near as fast on a Taig as with a bigger machine with the same spindle speed, and here more parts equals per hour equals more income potential. I would think for $10k you could get something used that is rather larger and with a VFD controlled spindle that could just rip through that kind of work.

After having some significant experiences with small-shop production environments, and small businesses starting out, I would also suggest in the strongest terms possible just to look into sourcing the production. Really. Unless one-off customization IS your companies value add, in which case you pretty much have to produce in-house, you don't want to do anything other than maybe prototyping and R&D. Really, there are virtually no valid reasons for producing stock inventory items yourself whatsoever and a lot of very good reasons not to. Especially when starting out. No matter how bad you may want to, it is most usually simply the death of a new business. You are trying to bring a product to market, not open a machine shop - they are two different businesses entirely, so decide which one you are going to be doing! If you want to bring production in-house after you have established a successful market share and a stable business, you can do the math then.