Wabeco?

[sergizmo]

Hi guys,

This is long, but bear with me.

The time is coming where I want to upgrade from my Sherline CNC. I need more rigidity, durability, speed and accuracy. Longer travels would be nice, but aren't crucial. The parts being machined are putters. Material is brass and aluminum. There may be some free cutting steel down the road.

I don't have a garage or basement to work from. This will have to go in a bedroom like the Sherlines (manual and CNC) are now. Because of this, the Tormach and any other machines north of 300 pounds are out.

It my options are very limited. The X2 doesn't have enough Y travel, X3 and X4 are too heavy to haul up a flight of stairs. Same deal with the Smithy's, 516 doesn't have enough Y and the 622 is too heavy. I also have doubts about the quality of these Chinese made machines. It seems guys put in a ton of work to get them where they want. This does not appeal to me.

This leaves me with either making my own machine or a Wabeco. An F1210E with ballscrews and the ISO30 taper at 110 volts is $10,190. It does come with a PC with Mach 3 loaded, which is nice. This is a German made machine, so the quality, materials and engineering will be top notch. But again, 10 G's plus whatever shipping (eeek!) and duty & taxes will cost (I'm thinking in the $1,600 range total here). So 11 something. Then whatever building an enclosure and the coolant setup costs. So pushing 12K. Yikes.

http://www.mdaprecision.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I966WNS_uM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I966WNS_uM

I have a machine in the CAD design process. Base is an 18 by 12 by 3 granite surface plate (already have). Rails, ballscrews and end supports will be homeshopcnc and they will do all machining. Cost for this is in the $2,300 range total plus shipping. Control will be a pre-made ready to run one from Keling, the more powerful one. Price $569. Steppers from Keling $130. Mach 3 from Keling $159. So total for electronics and control about $860. Spindle will be the X2 one from Homeshop CNC. Add in the belt drive, spindle lock, and drawbar for another $265. Say another $300 for DC motor and some type of "dimmer switch" control. We'll tack on another $150 for stepper couplers. That's $3,875. Tax on that is $500 (GST and PST) and say shipping is another $200. At $4,580. Let's say the required aluminum costs another $300. Misc stuff $250. Enclosure and coolant setup another $500. About $5,630 total all included. Half the price of the Wabeco.

I could do the ebay thing and save a ton of cash. Unfourtunately, my current machines aren't up to turning down ballscrew ends and my electronics knowledge is zero. So ordering stuff "to size", ballscrews pre-machined and electronics ready to go is probably the smart course of action.

Now, I realize that my build won't be as capable as the Wabeco. It will be a good 75 or so pounds lighter and probably not as precise. But if done right it will still be a lot faster, more rigid and more precise than my Sherline.

Does anyone have any experience with the Wabeco CNC mills? Are there any other machines under 300 pounds that would meet my requirements? Does anyone have any advice, suggestions, etc...?

Thanks,

Serge

[jalessi]

Serge,

Check this out, you can rent something like this and adapt it for a flight of stairs to move heavy objects such as a benchmill.

http://www.asequip.com/pdffiles/hoist_ladder.pdf


Jeff...

[digits]

They do look like very nice machines - I've seen one at an exhibition in the UK, but they do seem rather pricey to me - for that sort of money, I'd want linear slides and ballscrews - but they're only available on the 1400 series. I also think they could throw in some servos for the money.

That said, I would also suggest you factor in your own time and effort into the cost of a DIY machine, and make sure you have the tools you'd need to build it. My 'workshop' is also in a first floor bedroom, so I had similar weight restrictions - I ended up with a 250kg/500lb+ DIY machine which still isn't as accurate as I'd like yet. If I had to do it all again, I'd seriously consider buying an X-3 and then paying the supplier extra to ship it as head, column, table etc in separate packages, then you'd just need to get a couple of strong friends to help carry it up the stairs and a crate of beer to thank them.

[sergizmo]

Originally Posted by jalessi Serge, Check this out, you can rent something like this and adapt it for a flight of stairs to move heavy objects such as a benchmill. http://www.asequip.com/pdffiles/hoist_ladder.pdf Jeff...

Jeff,

There is a corner when going upstairs. Same with the basement. This wouldn't work. Plus there would be a lot of overhang off the platform from the crate or mill itself.

Thanks for trying though!

Serge

[sergizmo]

Originally Posted by digits They do look like very nice machines - I've seen one at an exhibition in the UK, but they do seem rather pricey to me - for that sort of money, I'd want linear slides and ballscrews - but they're only available on the 1400 series. I also think they could throw in some servos for the money. That said, I would also suggest you factor in your own time and effort into the cost of a DIY machine, and make sure you have the tools you'd need to build it. My 'workshop' is also in a first floor bedroom, so I had similar weight restrictions - I ended up with a 250kg/500lb+ DIY machine which still isn't as accurate as I'd like yet. If I had to do it all again, I'd seriously consider buying an X-3 and then paying the supplier extra to ship it as head, column, table etc in separate packages, then you'd just need to get a couple of strong friends to help carry it up the stairs and a crate of beer to thank them.

digits,

The "standard" F1210E for $7,500 comes with ACME screws. Ballscrews are a $2,500 upgrade. I'd want linear slides as well, they would wear a lot better than dovetail ways. A decent taper is also a $600 upgrade. Who in there right mind would want a MT2 taper with 1.5 HP? Why even offer it? Servos are no big deal to me, I don't need massive speeds. But yeah, it's a heck of a lot of cash for a machine that size.

It seems there are no other options. The Light Machines are expensive and heavy, and the Minitechs are expensive (You need to drop 20K to get ballscrews ?!?!) and are designed for smaller parts. I'm really not crazy about the Sieg stuff. They have to be "Frankensteined" a lot to be made nice. No thanks. Building it is, unless someone here has other options.

My machine will be considerably simpler than yours. Vertical spindle and much shorter travels (this is for putters only). Much smaller footprint and in the 175lb range. Buying the spindle instead of making it. Ballscrews will be already machined and end supports will be bought as well=drop in units. The base is a granite plate with 3/8" or 7/16" steel inserts for the rails, coloumn and end plate. Transfer punches will be used to mark the inserts, giving me a bit of lee-way. I think doing this properly will be the hardest part of the build. A small ground angle plate is being used to support the column. Surfaces will be made flat by using a metal epoxy and placing the object on a saran wrapped, release agent sprayed surface plate (the one being used for the base) under weight (Got this from another build). Most holes will be drilled by scribing with a height gauge, center punching and using the manual Sherline as a drill press. Or a hand drill with drill bushing for the holes on the steel inserts, top of the column and ends of the saddle. The mill is also being designed to have the minimum number of parts possible and to make these parts as simple as possible. No limit/home switches to start. Direct drive steppers. A simple gas spring or two to counter head weight. No "feature creep", at least for a while.

I have learned a lot from reading various build threads here on the Zone. A few in particular (Leeway's and the big router using the metal epoxy to make things flat) were very helpful. That has really helped me to get the design as "do-able" and simple as possible with very modest tools. I have no doubts that this will be extremely challenging and time consuming. But it can be done. Everything will be CAD drawn and then CAD assembled to verify all holes line up and everything clears. My electronics will be coming pre-built as well (Keling) to further ease the burden.

Plus if I build a machine, I can troubleshoot and fix it if it goes down. A bought machine going down will be a real problem.

Seeing the other threads really inspired me to try this if no machine meeting my requirements and budget is on the market.

Serge

[DonFrambach]

I am also upgrading from a Sherline (with A2ZCNC X & Y axis upgrades) and I too have my machine set up in a room in my house. I looked at the Wabeco machines (even visited MDAprecision in Gilroy, CA) The Wabecos are extremely nice but I decided to go with Minitech for several reasons.

1) you can buy a mill frame without a spindle and without motors for a lot less than 20K. I suggest you speak with Jack at Minitech about that.

2) I'm going to use my existing Sherline spindle and Flashcut servo motors on the new mill. This saves money but also will allow me to run everything that I'm currently doing.

3) The Sherline spindle is very quiet. Therefore I can run the mill at all times of the day (and night) without disturbing my family. I was concerned that the Wabeco spindle would be too loud for indoor use. I read of one user who reported that he could only run his Wabeco mill when his wife was out of the house.

4) The minitech system (which by the way has not arrived yet) will have linear ways and ball screws which I anticipate will be a major step up from what I'm currently using.

5) I think my needs will be met by the lighter cutting abilities of the Minitech compared to the Wabeco. Time will tell on this.

Good luck with your decision.

Don

edit: fixed a spelling error

[Harryman]

Sergizmo,

You've obviously done your homework on a DIY mill, and the mill you have in mind sounds like a decent compromise with the Waebco, but I'm wondering if you work for free as your not budgeting in your time. : ) If you've got a lot of time that's great, and if you consider building a machine a hobby, even better. If you could use a machine to make money during the time you'd spend building one and trouble shooting it, a turnkey machine might make more sense though.

I've had a Minitech MM3 Pro like this one for 4 years:

http://www.minitech.com/itemdesc.php?ic=2

Great machine, robust and accurate with ballscrews, linear ways and 14K with a spindle, so as Don said, it'd be less if you just bought the frame. I dunno how much, you'd have to contact Jack. You can pick it up carry it around by yourself although unless you want to kill yourself, a strong friend is a help.

I'm not sure what sized envelope you'd need for putters, I'm thinking the MM3 would be OK but the MM4 is bigger if you needed more.

All the parts in a Minitech are off the shelf so if worse came to worse, you can rebuild the entire thing yourself.

My $.02

[sergizmo]

Hi Don,

Thanks for another point of view. It seems you and I have different needs and requirements (and buget). What kind of parts are you making?

1) The Mini Mill 3 Pro is the lowest model to offer ballscrews. It' 14K. Even if it was 10K for just the frame I still need to get a spindle and electronics package that would put it on par price wise with the Wabeco.

2) I need something beefier than the Sherline spindle. The 1MT (or the "industrial" ER16) taper is too small. The motor doesn't have enough power (Saying it has 1/2 HP is a joke). I'm looking to take deeper cuts at faster feedrates. Currently I'm taking .025" DOC @ 8IPM with a 40% or so percent stepover with a 3/8 EM in brass and aluminum. The goal is .05" DOC @ 16-20IPM with the same endmill and stepover. No way the Sherline spindle can handle that.

3) The Sherline spindle is very quiet. I'm sure any other setup will be louder. Machining will only be done when everyone is awake. The base of a DIY will be a granite plate so that should absorb a lot of low frequency vibrations. There will be an enclosure built as well. If it's still real loud, I may have to invest in some carboard egg trays.

4) Linear ways and ballscrews are a must for me as well. Smoother, more efficient, more accurate, and virtually no wear. I'm sick and tired of constantly adjusting backlash nuts and gibs once in a while. But to get this with Minitech is too expensive for me.

5) That is the big thing. I think the Minitech's are made for things like jewelry, engraving, and making small moulds. High RPM, fast feedrates with small cutters and shallow cuts. I want to remove material more quickly with a 3/8" end mill (making putters). That requires a different type of machine.

Good luck with you as well. Maybe once you have had the Minitech for a while and made some parts you can post a thread with pics. That would be really interesting.

Serge

edited #1. Didn't realize the 3 pro came with ballscrews.

[sergizmo]

Originally Posted by Harryman Sergizmo, You've obviously done your homework on a DIY mill, and the mill you have in mind sounds like a decent compromise with the Waebco, but I'm wondering if you work for free as your not budgeting in your time. : ) If you've got a lot of time that's great, and if you consider building a machine a hobby, even better. If you could use a machine to make money during the time you'd spend building one and trouble shooting it, a turnkey machine might make more sense though. I've had a Minitech MM3 Pro like this one for 4 years: http://www.minitech.com/itemdesc.php?ic=2 Great machine, robust and accurate with ballscrews, linear ways and 14K with a spindle, so as Don said, it'd be less if you just bought the frame. I dunno how much, you'd have to contact Jack. You can pick it up carry it around by yourself although unless you want to kill yourself, a strong friend is a help. I'm not sure what sized envelope you'd need for putters, I'm thinking the MM3 would be OK but the MM4 is bigger if you needed more. All the parts in a Minitech are off the shelf so if worse came to worse, you can rebuild the entire thing yourself. My $.02

Hi Harry,

I would consider a build almost like a hobby. Even drawing it up has been a fun challenge. I realize that it will be tough with a lot of unexpected problems to solve. That is why the third design is being drawn up, to make it as simple as possible. That's also why the electronics will be bought assembled and tested, the spindle will be bought instead of making one, and why the ballscrews and supports will be bought as drop in units. No limit switches (at least to start) computer spindle or coolant control. This will be nowhere near as much work as a 5bears type build.

The work envelope on the MM3 is fine. It's the ability to remove material quickly that I have doubts about. The machine is only 95 pounds. That's not much more than a CNC Taig. The stock spindle tells me all I need to know. This machine was meant to use smaller cutters turning at high speeds taking shallow cuts. It does that very well (Your work is certainly testament to that) but that's not what I'm looking for. It's perfect for small moulds, jewelry, PCB's, etc... But not for removing metal with a 3/8 EM.

The plan is to keep the Sherlines (manual and CNC) alive until the new mill replaces them both. The orders are coming slowly, so I should have quite a while until they die on me.

Great work BTW. Very impressive.

Serge

[DonFrambach]

Serge,

I have no relationship with Minitech (except as a current customer waiting for his first mill from them). I think you are going through some of the same thinking I went through and I was real surprised at what I learned. I even ordered linear slides and trucks from HomeShopCNC (fortunately for only 1 axis). I was concerned that the Minitech mill would not be substantial enough for my purposes (small aluminum and brass parts). There is a thread that I started a long time ago on CNCZONE about this. I'll try to find that link. for now:

1) The price of a MiniMill 3/Pro frame (that's with linear slides and ball screws is substantially less than 10K)

5) You can use a much larger spindle on the Minitech mill than the Sherline.
http://minitechcnc.com/spindles/hs01.htm

Don

[sergizmo]

Hi Don,

Even considering the price stripped, I still think a Wabeco would be a better option for a purchased machine for my needs. The Wabeco is 257 pounds, a MM3P is 95. The Minitech optional spindles are all high RPM units. The one you linked me has a minimum RPM of 5,000. That's nuts. Biggest collet, 5/16". No good, I need to be able to use a 3/8" drill. Also, $3,250. Yikes.

From all I have seen, the Minitech emphasis is on precision machining of small parts with very small end mills. That is what these machines are designed to do. Small moulds, dies, jewelry, engraving, etc... This is evident from all the pics on the site.

Right now I have two putter models. The larger aluminum one starts as a 4" by 3.6" by 1" piece of stock. I want to be able to clamp that raw piece in sitting up on parallels and machine the outside perimeter, large cental pocket, two weight port pockets and sole countours all in one shot. A substantial amount of material removal. That is why I think a heavier machine running a 3/8" end mill at 4,000 RPM or so will work better for me than a smaller one running a 1/4" or smaller end mill at a zillion RPM with very shallow cuts.

I am in no way saying the Minitech's are bad machines. They just seem poorly matched to my machining needs.

Serge

[DonFrambach]

I think that the Wabeco or your DIY mill will work well for you.

I'll post something when I get going with my new mill. I'd be very interested to see how your DYI mill works out if you decide to go that route.

Don