Why step up to larger CNC Mill?

[msc]

I am considering a Taig CNC. The work pieces I will be doing will fit within the Taigs work area. I will be cutting mostly alum., and some brass. The Taig CNC mill seems very well designed, well supported and their is enough users whereas 3rd party accessories and support from 3rd party vendors will always be available... There is clearly benefits to owning a high volume mill - hence why I am leaning towards the Taig.

That being said, I am also impressed with the Tormach CNC .... for the difference in price, you sure are getting a LOT more mill. So, I am trying to get a better understanding of what benefits it would offer me? Since I don't cut hard metals, and speed is not a huge issue, since I am not a production shop...and my work pieces will fit within the Taig, is there any benefits the Tormach will offer, such as higher precision? It appears the Taig even wins in precision? Are the bench-top mills as reliable as a Tormach?

I have been away from milling for many years, so i am sure I must be forgetting some considerations....... any input would be greatly appreciated....

TYIA

[ataxy]

overall precision at faster speed rate and longer life expectency of the machine

[Stepper Monkey]

The Taig is indeed everything you say, and probably easily everything you likely need, but there is definitely a big difference between a 110 lb machine and an 1100 lb machine!
Even if the pieces are small enough to easily make in the Taig, if you are doing production of identical items in commercial quantity you will find the difference of the Tormach spindles additional horsepower and the machines extra mass will allow the same part to be cut at higher speed than with the Taig. In production, that cycle time can be important, and directly determine profitability.
If you are making a lot of different parts in small quantities and one-offs, then saving a few seconds or minutes per cycle is irrelevant as you spend far more time in setup than you ever do cutting! In this case the Taig is perfect.
Base price is one thing, but when both systems are fully outfitted with their accessories, it is almost a ten grand difference in the end. So it really all depends on whether the larger machine would be of any benefit to you given your needs, and if so, if you can justify the extra cost given those benefits.

[philbur]

Are you sure you are comparing apples with apples. I can't find any performance figures on the Taig website only resolution numbers, which of course are not the same thing. Resolution is purely about gearing and has nothing to do with precision.

Also I would say that if you are considering a Taig and a Tormach for the same application then you have not yet got a good handle on exactly what your application is. Both machines have their place, it's just not the same place.

The one advantage the Taig has over the Tormach is the 10,000 rpm spindle. Small machines are most effective at high rpm. So if your cutter sizes keep you up at the high end of the Taig speed range it could be a viable option. With all due respect to the Taig the Tormach beats it in all other departments, as you would expect for the price difference. If you are running your machine a few hours per week then the Taig will possibly have the durability. If you are running a few hours a day with a high intensity of x, y and z movements, as in 3D profiling, then those leadscrews, the ways and lubrication is going to become a big issue.

Just some personal thoughts and opinions.

Phil

PS: To put things in perspective I have a Tormach, I have never operated a Taig.

Originally Posted by msc It appears the Taig even wins in precision? TYIA

[cyclestart]

In the apples and oranges department, my only cnc experience is with commercial machining centers and now an X2 mini-mill. In a lot of ways the fly weight machine takes more skill. For example nice finishes on a large machine are almost a given. With the X2 it takes some experimentation. Maybe the same type of thing differentiates a Tormach from a Taig? Having used neither I'm speculating here.

I'm truly envious of that 10,000 rpm spindle

[msc]

Stepper Monkey.... I fully agree, two machines 1000 lbs weight difference serve different markets, I have not overlooked that fact. The added mass, sure will add to speed and accuracy, its just the nature of a mill. But you are correct in mentioning, the Taig "might" be all I need.

As for the Taig placement accuracy, I was working from memory, but I emailed Taig to confirm this.... It's unfortunate the Taig does not offer more detailed specifications of the mill.

Philbur, I was thinking along the same lines.... if I simply want to prototype parts, the time savings between the two mills is insignificant, as set-up is the biggest component. In addition, I agree with cyclestart, the smaller the mill, the more thinking that must go into the design, to produce an equal part finish, again a function of deflection, power, etc. But if I own a Taig, my design thinking, will be geared to what it takes to make the right within a Taigs limitations.

Here was my overall game plan... My number one need for the CNC is to make many parts to assemble working prototypes on several products. Once the prototype is successful, I then need to go into production quantities of maybe 300 qnty per part, then, maybe up to 1000 qnty per part. Total parts maybe 30 - 50 per product. Certainly not 10 qnty, and not 10k qnty either.... so, I am in the "in-between" zone in qnty's.


My thinking was, the key is to perfect the prototype myself (the hard part) then, regardless of whether I owned a Taig or a Tormach, I could never run these parts on a production basis.... at this point, I would need a CNC with automatic tool changers, faster speed, larger XY work areas to allow for multiple part cutting at the same time, etc.... so regardless if I had a Tormach or Taig, I could never run these parts cost effectively myself, so either way, I will end up going to Asia, or maybe even a highly automated USA house for production runs. Of course, if the volumes were smaller, I would consider getting the Tormach, or even a step-up, and do my own production runs..... but that is not the case, and IMO, tool changes alone will make the runs cost prohibitive with an mill I am willing to spend for.

So with this added information, any thoughts? I can afford the Tormach, but unless I can see enough gains for its intended use, I prefer a smaller more manageable machine that has a smaller footprint.

To that end, I am also very impressed with the Wabeco line of CNC mills.... it seems these mills are highly precisioned, small footprint / weight, albeit, a much heftier price tag vs. the Taig - 3x.



http://tinyurl.com/2e32uo

[Stepper Monkey]

Maybe someone could tell me differently, but those Wabeco mills look a WHOLE lot like they are based on the Chinese mill chassis, right down to the smallest castings.
I know they say made in Germany, and I don't doubt they aren't put together there, but I'm thinking they might be just very nicely modified Chinese mills. I used to sell watches and am familiar with that game - the way the laws work there if a certain percentage of the parts are assembled in a country the product can be marked as having been made there. This is why some "German" watches are assembled in Germany with predominantly Chinese/Asian parts, and some "Swiss" watches have mainly German-made and even French parts.

Should this be the case, especially with the extreme pricing considering the horrible exchange rate, It would be far easier to just buy a modified X-mill from someone here in the US that sells the same thing. Or get the Tormach or something else. Also, Have you looked into Minitech at all?

[philbur]

You still haven't addressed spindle speed and cutter size. A Taig might even be faster than a Tormach. Also it seems you are going to be very busy with your product so you will need a machine that runs reliably straight out of the box. Somebody may correct me but I thought the Taig was predominantly a hobbyist’s machine, need continuous love and attention.

At the end of the day if price is not so important why try to get down to the smallest feasible machine, just buy a Tormach and move on. The only thing you might come to regret on the Tormach is the 4,500 rpm spindle speed, which can be over come relatively easily with some $$$.

Phil

Originally Posted by msc Stepper Monkey.... I fully agree, two machines 1000 lbs weight difference serve different markets, I have not overlooked that fact. The added mass, sure will add to speed and accuracy, its just the nature of a mill. But you are correct in mentioning, the Taig "might" be all I need. As for the Taig placement accuracy, I was working from memory, but I emailed Taig to confirm this.... It's unfortunate the Taig does not offer more detailed specifications of the mill. Philbur, I was thinking along the same lines.... if I simply want to prototype parts, the time savings between the two mills is insignificant, as set-up is the biggest component. In addition, I agree with cyclestart, the smaller the mill, the more thinking that must go into the design, to produce an equal part finish, again a function of deflection, power, etc. But if I own a Taig, my design thinking, will be geared to what it takes to make the right within a Taigs limitations. Here was my overall game plan... My number one need for the CNC is to make many parts to assemble working prototypes on several products. Once the prototype is successful, I then need to go into production quantities of maybe 300 qnty per part, then, maybe up to 1000 qnty per part. Total parts maybe 30 - 50 per product. Certainly not 10 qnty, and not 10k qnty either.... so, I am in the "in-between" zone in qnty's. My thinking was, the key is to perfect the prototype myself (the hard part) then, regardless of whether I owned a Taig or a Tormach, I could never run these parts on a production basis.... at this point, I would need a CNC with automatic tool changers, faster speed, larger XY work areas to allow for multiple part cutting at the same time, etc.... so regardless if I had a Tormach or Taig, I could never run these parts cost effectively myself, so either way, I will end up going to Asia, or maybe even a highly automated USA house for production runs. Of course, if the volumes were smaller, I would consider getting the Tormach, or even a step-up, and do my own production runs..... but that is not the case, and IMO, tool changes alone will make the runs cost prohibitive with an mill I am willing to spend for. So with this added information, any thoughts? I can afford the Tormach, but unless I can see enough gains for its intended use, I prefer a smaller more manageable machine that has a smaller footprint. To that end, I am also very impressed with the Wabeco line of CNC mills.... it seems these mills are highly precisioned, small footprint / weight, albeit, a much heftier price tag vs. the Taig - 3x. http://tinyurl.com/2e32uo

[Stepper Monkey]

Originally Posted by philbur You still haven't addressed spindle speed and cutter size. A Taig might even be faster than a Tormach. Also it seems you are going to be very busy with your product so you will need a machine that runs reliably straight out of the box. Somebody may correct me but I thought the Taig was predominantly a hobbyist’s machine, need continuous love and attention.

Spindle speed is indeed a very important consideration. I was probably assuming too much in thinking that he had already determined it was going to be under 4500 RPM, or he wouldn't have been looking at the Tormach in the first place, but that isn't necessarily true being a newbie. Sorry, it's hard to think like a newbie sometimes! Thanks for pointing it out.

If you do need the higher speed, the headstocks on a Taig are not only faster, they are removable and interchangable, and swap in under a minute. This allows one to mount multiple spindle options. Mount any spindle, engraver, hand router, etc. to a simple bracket and you have a new spindle. I find it handy to have several for different purposes up to about 40,000 RPM.

Part of your characterization of the Taig is true, it is predominantly used by hobbyists - mainly because of its size though, not its reliability. They were originally designed to handle, and are used quite often, in production environments. There are companies running whole banks of them 16 hours a day as well, and you coudn't pull that off with most hobby mills. The constant attention and fiddling hobby mills need just isn't really applicable to the Taigs. They are little bricks. It's why I like them, portable and indestructable, if a little crude and rough around the edges.

[msc]

Phil, sorry, did not mean to avoid the spindle speed issue.... yes, you may be right about the Tormach spindle speed....but I have been away from milling long enough, whereas the answer was not so readily apparent, maybe you can help.... I will be cutting alum. rarely thicker than 1/4".... mostly light end milling, very light booring.....very little (if any) 3d profiling... I would classify most of the parts as 2 1/2 D, not 3D. Any part that has substantial 3d shape, I will probably sub out, as there is limits to how deep i want to get into this. 97% of the parts are 2 1/2 D.....I should have stated that in my original post, sorry. I am curious about the spindle speed issue now that I am clearer about my intended use. Sorry for my rust...its been 25 years :-(

It was interesting to read Stepmnky comments on the Taig, its head stock change out...seems pretty flexible. I rarely read bad comments regarding the Taig, your last post supports this.

BTW, how much $$ does it cost to change the Tormach spindle speed?

The only reason i would prefer (but not sold on yet) the smaller mill, is mainly due to its large footprint, I am running out of space... I also get tired of moving heavy machines, which always seems to happen on a regular basis :-) As for use, at times, the mill will run most of the day for a month, then, not used for a month or two... I would consider it light use...


StepperMnky, I hope those Wabeco are not X mills, sheeesh.... and you are right, with the ridiculous exchange rate, anything is possible. Thanks for the Minitech lead.... very nice CNC mills.... Taig size, Tormach pricing :-) Obviously they are much more precisioned.... I will speak with them...

[LongRat]

I've had a good look at the Wabeco line at shows here in the UK. I'd be VERY surprised if they were chinese based. Definitely not based on Sieg X-machines that's for sure. They are a whole different class, in fact they are the nicest small mills I've ever seen. If I had the money, I'd definitely consider one. But I agree about the spindle speed issue, that would override pretty much all else.

[Stepper Monkey]

Originally Posted by LongRat I've had a good look at the Wabeco line at shows here in the UK. I'd be VERY surprised if they were chinese based. Definitely not based on Sieg X-machines that's for sure. They are a whole different class, in fact they are the nicest small mills I've ever seen. If I had the money, I'd definitely consider one. But I agree about the spindle speed issue, that would override pretty much all else.

Thanks for that, it's nice to know. I have never seen the Wabeco in person, they just don't pop up in the U.S. very often. There are several companies just putting nice sheetmetal over modded Chinese mills and I was wondering if this was one of them, very glad that doesn't seem to be the case here.