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Could I get an X3 (from Grizzly or Harbor Freight) and convert it myself for $2500? Using quality parts of course...not the cheapest. And if I could would I be better served?
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Hi,
I am new to CNC and machining. My current profession is a CAD technician. Anyway on to my question.
Does anyone here have any experience with the TL511DN 4-axis CNC mill? I first saw one listed on eBay.com while looking for a cnc mill. I had been concidering getting one of the 4-axis taig mills that are already cnc'ed but then I came accross this mill and thought it would probably be better; but, since I have no experience with mills I thought I would ask you guys opinions.
The guy/ company that sells these mills just changed over to a new model TL512 which has ball screws on all 3 axises. Which is what I am looking at getting.
This is an old listing for one of the TL511DN Mills
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220117057709
4-Axis CNC Mill Tabletop Precision New Complete
Closed loop servo, cast iron. For serious work. Item number: 220117057709
Description
CNC, Vertical
Highest Spindle Speed (RPM): 5001 - 7500
Control Type:
Closed loop servo
Serial Number: 04232007
4-Axis Table Tabletop CNC Mill with Closed Loop DSP Servo Control.
Model TL511DN.
This mill is made in New Jersey.
DN stands for Double Nut. This mill has mechanical backlash compensation on all 3 axes
Advantages over competition:
Consider all this before you buy any other machine. After all, you will get what you paid for.
1. Mach 3 Ready. The Mach 3, http://www.machsupport.com/, configuration file is included with the mill. Copy it into Mach 3 directory and you are ready to go.
2. Closed loop servo control on all axes. Each axis is equipped with DC servomotor with encoder. When a computer calls for a step, the motor makes a step and the motor’s encoder verifies that the step was made. This way the machine will not loose steps.
Stepper motor controller doesn’t know whether the step was made and you may loose at least one or two (more likely quite a few) steps during your machining. When it happens your part will not be the same as you design it.
3. The DSP Servo Controller incorporates an advance PID motion control algorithm and has a built-in motor’s over-current protection. This feature makes a limit switches unnecessary. The controller will shut of all the motors if even one carriage hits any obstacles or reaches the corresponding end of motion. The controller parameters are tuned to the corresponding motor.
4. Reversible spindle rotation. You will appreciate a reversible spindle rotation feature when you will thread holes. It is also handy when you are using fly cutters and boring heads.
5. Infinitely variable spindle RPM control. You can vary the spindle RPM on our mill from almost 0 to the full speed without loosing torque on low RPM. It is good for threading, temperature sensitive plastic machining and very hard steels, such as “chrome-molly” or 400 series stainless steel.
A few gear or pulley reduction stages are not enough for all machining strategies.
6. Our mill can be used as a manual drill press. This with the spindle reversible feature will allow you to thread holes.
7. The DSP servo controller allows a cooling pump to be turn on and off under the software control. Just plug your pump into controller receptacle on the front panel. The liquid cooling is essential not only to prolong a cutting tool life but also to eliminate dust when machining plastic, fiberglass and various toxic bronzes. This is an important health issue.
8. We include a full set of collets from 1/8” to 1/2” in diameter.
9. The 4-th axis is a cast iron 4” Dia. Rotary table suitable for heavy machining. This is not an aluminum gimmick for light plastic or jewelry work it is a real thing.
10.Our machine is made out of cast iron. It is heavy and it is made the same way as a big Bridgeport and others. You cannot machine heavy parts on a light aluminum table. The more our mill works the smoother the carriage motion become; just like a car after a few thousand miles. Hard plated aluminum guides will eventually wear down to the soft aluminum.
11.Our mill can be used as a manual mill. We have all cranks in place. It may be handy for a setup or just to do a simple machining or drilling.
Features
· Simultaneous 4-axes contouring.
· All 3-axes utilize ”double nut” backlash compensation.
The double nut mechanical backlash compensation may not eliminate the backlash completely.
However, it will allow you to narrow it down to and will allow for a lead screw wear adjustment.
· Two-stage belt drive allows for a maximum of 6000-RPM Spindle Speed.
· Lead screws on every axis have a pair of thrust bearings.
· 4-Axes DSP servo controller has built-in power supply.
· Each Servomotor’s cable plugs directly into servo controller. No wiring is necessary.
· Servos are coupled to their lead screws with 1:6 ratio timing belt transmissions to maximize torque.
· 4-Axes Servo controller accepts virtually any step/direction software such as Mach3
(Mach3 configuration file is included) and connects to a computer parallel port.
The Mach3 software is highly recommended and can be obtained from www.artofcnc.ca
· Spindle and a cooling pump can be plugged in directly into controller’s receptacles.
Both can be switched on and off under software control.
· 4” diameter rotary table is included and can be mounted vertically or horizontally.
Included with the mill:
· 4-Axes DSP servo controller
· 4” Dia. cast iron rotary table with DC servo motor with encoder
· Drill chuck and set of wrenches.
· Set of MT2 collets from 1/8” to ½”
· Cooling hose with 3 nozzles.
· Power and printer port cables.
· Manual
· CD with DOS software, Mach3 setup, and a Mastercam post.
Specifications:
Spindle Motor
120 V, 1/5 HP
Spindle Speed
100 - 6000 RPM,
Electronic Speed Control
Two Stage Spindle Belt Drive
100 – 2500 RPM and 100 – 6000 RPM
Spindle Rotation
CW and CCW
Milling Capacity
¾ Face Mill on steel
Maximum X Travel
12”
Maximum Y Travel
6”
Maximum Z Travel
8"
X/Y table slot
½”
X/Y lead screw
½”-20
Swing
11”
X/Y Dial Resolution
0.0005”
Table Size
18 5/8” x 6”
Base Size
10 1/8” x 9 3/8”
Spindle taper
MT2
Weight
170 Lb.
Shipping weights
200 Lb.
The knob sets the Spindle RPM electronically.
The Spindle output is controlled by M3 (on) and M5 (off)
The Aux output (for cooling) is controlled by M8 (on) and M9 (off)
Accuracy and Repeatability:
The mill is very accurate. Guides are hand honed to tight tolerance. The accuracy of your part, however, will depend upon your cutting parameters and cutting strategy. Most machines on the market can achieve great motion repeatability, but cannot make accurate parts. The reason is poor machine rigidity. Our machine is made out of cast iron. It is heavy and rigid and therefore can produce more accurate parts compare to aluminum machines.
You cannot buy a better tabletop mill!
The mill is shipped in two crates
UPS Ground
Shipping and Handling To Service
US $195.00 United States UPS Ground
Sorry about making it such a long post.
Thanks,
Frank
Could I get an X3 (from Grizzly or Harbor Freight) and convert it myself for $2500? Using quality parts of course...not the cheapest. And if I could would I be better served?
I would spend more time comparing mills. First you have to decide what you want to do with it. I think you were on the right track with the Taig.
Have you ever used a Taig?
One thing that I am going to be milling is a part out of a piece of about 5"x2"x8" 7075-T6 Aluminum.
I would also like to be able to do a little bit of milling with 4041 Pre-Hardened Steel.
The reasons that I am considering this mill over the Taig are that it is more substantial (heavier and probably more rigid). I also liked the fact that it has servos over steppers; but, I'm sure that that is really not a big deal. I guess the main thing was that it appeared to be more heavy duty than the Taig. But, since I have no experience with either I am asking here.
Thanks for the suggestion.
No. And if you value your time, it would cost much more. I don't have a breakdown, but you will need motors, motor drivers, PC interface [commonly called the "breakout board"], motor power supply, motor mounts, software, and a PC. Some of have extended the base, and modified the spindle drive, and so on. I suppose their is no end to what you can do. The number of off the shelf kits seems to be growing.Originally Posted by 725franky
You will have to decide what accuracy you can live with. You will pay more for better parts, servo motor over stepper, ball screw over lead screw. Already I would like to have servo motor, and I haven't finished the stepper CNC conversion.
I have once read that the dovetails on an X2 table were out of parallel by 0.015" from end to end. I bet that any of the X's are a crap shoot when it comes to holding down tight manufacturing tolerances. I still have to check my table for that.
Last but not least, the used equipment market is at its lowest. It's the riggers who are making money putting these machines into garages and basements, not the end user.
Last edited by Jeff Simkins; 07-03-2007 at 10:26 AM.
x1 conversion like that ebay machine is not any better than taig. I have a taig and x2, and I prefer the taig for lighter cuts. X3 is better than both by far. I have it as well now. for milling, it really depends upon how much you are cutting. if you use small bits, taig does fine with mild steel and aluminum. hardened steel is more bit/cooling system dependent. you will have to go slow on that. (and this is true for x1 and taig) x2 does have bigger bit capacity and power, even though taig is not bad with 1/4hp motor.
you can probably setup an x3 for about 2500, if you use the stock screws. cncfusion kit is fairly cheap without the ballscrews. I am in the process of setting up the deluxe kit. I like the rigidity of x3.
the servo motor on that x1 cnc also looks cheap.
I have never used a Taig, however they are the most referenced tool for benchtop mills. They are good for the money.
I have an X2. My experience is limited, but I find that I prefer using a Bridgeport Series II knee mill. Big pieces and little pieces fit on it without having figure out how to hold it down on a tiny table, and then, the horsepower [2HP] on the spindle makes up for lack of experience.
You have to ask yourself "Do I want to make a CNC mill, or do I want to make parts?" You can always RFQ the parts you want made.
Simkins,
While making a CNC machine does sound interesting (as well as fun and educating), right now I would rather be able to make parts. However, since I love learning new things, if there was a big enough advantage I would consider assembling a CNC mill. Oh yeah, as long as it wouldn't take me forever too. I was just worried that a Taig might not be able to handle what I was going to make but, like I said I do not yet have any first hand experience.
Askman,
Are you saying that the TL512 mill that I was asking about is an X1 conversion? Could I do an X3 conversion with ball screws for under $2800?
Thanks,
Frank
Look up X1 on here, there are a couple of threads going currently, but the X1 has a long and tarnished history no matter how many extra letters and numbers you add to its name. Probably why they don't call it an X1 in the auction.
Just print out a picture of that auction, then go to Harbor Freight and look at thier 299.95 mill and I bet you'll recognize it pretty fast. Then remember thier "constructed just like a Bridgeport" "made in USA" and "can't buy a better mill" and see if you are comfortable doing business with these people.
BTW, servos on that thing is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in a while. To the newbies eye, however, it does make the whole unit appear to have an aura of quality. Probably precisely the reason it was done. I am actually impressed by the level of misleading statistics and bafflegab aimed directly at the non-experienced user. It is quite an impressively crafted piece of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) aimed squarely at unnerving prospective buyers and undermining faith in other CNC equipment. It appears to target the Taig most squarely, as they are pretty much the gold standard reference for small tabletop mills.
I am glad you checked here, I am afraid many won't have. I would have been fooled by that ad when I first was getting into CNC. I'm sure many are.
Unfortunately, the people who fall prey to this kind of scam when getting into CNC for the first time often leave frustrated and never look back. These kind of sharks are damaging the whole industry.
If you want a machine about that size and price, clearly go Taig. If you can afford to about double your budget, then other options open up as well for much larger ready-to-run machines like Syil's X3 CNC conversion.
I appreciate all of the replies. Thanks guys.
I looked again at the picture of the mill on the ebay auction and then went and looked at some pictures of the X1's;yep, you're right it looks awful close.
What kind of cuts can a Taig make in the materials I mentioned earlier? By what kind of cuts I mean like:
With a .250" ball nose end mill how many IPM @ what depth in 7075-T6?
And can a Taig even reasonably cut through 4041 pre-hardened steel?
I appreciate all of the help. I probably almost ended up with a lower quality machine at a higher price.
There is a thread on that machine somewhere on this forum. I recall one of the comments from an (owner?) to the effect that the control systems weren't bad but the mechanicals were X1 with all the deficiencies that that implies (although the maker claims that the X1 parts are just "raw material" and are reworked to a higher standard. I'm saving my pennies for a Taig and, after the recent issues with pet food, toothpaste and seafood, if I pick something up and can find "made in China" on it, I put it down.
EM
When I asked about the TL512 (used to be TL511DN) being a CNC conversion from an existing mill I was told:
Thanks for the reply,The CNC conversion works only if you have a good mill in a first place.
We tried to retrofit several models a few years ago but it was a waist of time.
All Chinese retrofits are sort of poor man cnc.
We are using Chinese components from various sources but treated them as "raw material".
They have to be re-machined and honed to make a decent component.
The Taig is a very good machine for light applications. It is a light, aluminum machine.
I am skeptical of a CNC conversion machines on Ebay. No one in particular. A lot of complaints on user groups.
Most of them cannot match motors to the machines.
Frank
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