Question about Xylotex Controller and Sieg X3 mill

[wwendorf]

I'm planning on purchasing an X3 mill. I'm going to do the
conversion myself to CNC to try and save some cost. Does anyone on this list currently have an X3 run on the Xylotex controller?

If so, could you post your experiences? This is mostly a hobby, but
I am planning on doing some production work if some of my designs turn out and work the way I want them to. I was considering the
Syil Super X3 conversion, but it's so much more expensive than just
buying a mill and converting it myself, especially since I have the
ability to do it.

I'm also looking for information on depth of cut and speed in
aluminum (i'm using this as my benchmark in comparisons). I got
comments from some of the Syil America sales staff that they
regularly cut .150 to .175 deep at 8-9 ipm when doing demos (this is
cutting dry).

Can an X3 using the Xylotex controller and 497 oz steppers compare
with this?

Thanks in advance for your comments. Also, any additional
information would be great as well!

Wade

[Oldmanandhistoy]

Hi,

I am not really qualified to answer your question but from what I have read about the X3 and Xylotex 3 axis kit if you have the 400+ oz in motors and you are going to use ball screws you should have all the power you need. I did note one member saying he used a Xylotex with stepper motor of around 250 oz in to good effect. I am hoping that you doubt my word enough to do more searching for the answer.

As for the feeds and speeds; you may have or not noticed I have a thread concerning feeds and speeds with an X2 mill. In that thread I am trying (with little success at the moment) to evaluate the figures using “ME Consultant 2.0”. You may have heard of it but if not it is freeware and from what I have read is very good. I am not in the position myself to be able to do an evaluation as I have not made a single cut with a mill.

I know these aren’t the definitive answers you are looking for but from my experience so far on this particular forum they might be the only ones you get. The only other help I can offer is to use the “search this forum” button and dig through the search results for the answers.

We noobs need to stick together; I hope that I may have helped at least a little.

Good luck,

John

[S_J_H]

yep, I'm using a xylotex and 425 oz steppers on my x3.
I ran into MAJOR midband resonance problems with the 425 oz motors and the xylotex drive. Bad enough that the mill was totally unuseable. I made some harmonic dampers which completely removed the resonance so the drive works perfectly now and mill is a joy to use.
I have pics and some video here showing how this thing ran with and without the dampers on the motors.
http://s109.photobucket.com/albums/n...ill/?start=all

Steve

[wwendorf]

Thanks for the replies. Steve, what would you say your max feed rate is in aluminum, as well as your cut depth?

Do you have any plans for your harmonic dampners? Do you think that larger stepper motors would work better? I'm thinking of the 497 oz ones.

Wade

[cyclestart]

Originally Posted by wwendorf I was considering the Syil Super X3 conversion, but it's so much more expensive than just buying a mill and converting it myself, especially since I have the ability to do it.

Hmm, maybe. S_J_H has a beautiful conversion but has he documented all the costs? The Syil has a lot of features for the price. Don't forget the shipping costs on all the individual bits and pieces.

That said, I'm doing my own conversion on an X2. Partly for the fun and partly to control what components go into it. And, as always, if you love what you're doing your time is free!

[BZER1]

Originally Posted by S_J_H yep, I'm using a xylotex and 425 oz steppers on my x3. I ran into MAJOR midband resonance problems with the 425 oz motors and the xylotex drive. Bad enough that the mill was totally unuseable. I made some harmonic dampers which completely removed the resonance so the drive works perfectly now and mill is a joy to use. I have pics and some video here showing how this thing ran with and without the dampers on the motors. http://s109.photobucket.com/albums/n...ill/?start=all Steve

Great job! I really like your dampers, did you make them? I'm just about to undergo an upgrade on my new X3, and was wondering about increasing the x and y axis travel. I found a cracked base and table for a similar machine and was going to try some of my theories on that before I attempted to apply them to my new mill. Any thoughts on increasing the travel? I'm thinking that I'll upgrade in stages...After the initial move to CNC I'll most likely make all future changes modular so the mill can be brought back to it's previous form at any time, just in case the theories don't translate to real life, and to make each component easy to reproduce. Although if the theories are sound, someone here can make them work.

[Stepper Monkey]

Just remember that going to bigger motors might well cause the resonance problem to actually get worse. That and you have to use some pretty slow, high inductance motors to get 500 oz out of the current delivered by a Xylotex. There are some nasty tradeoffs in there.

Just remember, if you are going from maybe 40% efficient acme screws - even less with AB nuts - to a 90% or better efficiency ballscrew, you are no longer putting more than 2/3rds of your power into just fighting the screw friction.
I am having great luck with 250 and 280 oz. motors. I could well get away with a LOT less than that. I know someone who makes parts professionally on a daily basis using something in the 150 oz range. Sounds small but with the added screw efficiency and low inductance he gets a lot of speed and responsiveness and better power and performance than using 500/oz motors on an acme screw.

Once you are cutting is a far better measure of power than when standing still, and at running speed even the 150/oz motor may well be stronger than a 500/oz motor with windings designed for only a couple of amps current.

[BZER1]

Originally Posted by Stepper Monkey Just remember that going to bigger motors might well cause the resonance problem to actually get worse. That and you have to use some pretty slow, high inductance motors to get 500 oz out of the current delivered by a Xylotex. There are some nasty tradeoffs in there. Just remember, if you are going from maybe 40% efficient acme screws - even less with AB nuts - to a 90% or better efficiency ballscrew, you are no longer putting more than 2/3rds of your power into just fighting the screw friction. I am having great luck with 250 and 280 oz. motors. I could well get away with a LOT less than that. I know someone who makes parts professionally on a daily basis using something in the 150 oz range. Sounds small but with the added screw efficiency and low inductance he gets a lot of speed and responsiveness and better power and performance than using 500/oz motors on an acme screw. Once you are cutting is a far better measure of power than when standing still, and at running speed even the 150/oz motor may well be stronger than a 500/oz motor with windings designed for only a couple of amps current.

I'm now trying to decide weather to go with the 280's or 425's. I thought the 280's would be just fine but I was also thinking that if my needs changed before I was ready to upgrade to a bigger machine would I need to buy the bigger steppers later? I will be doing mostly hobby type machining, on aluminum, plastic, wood and some mild steel. At some point I'll be making jigs and attachments for my mill which will be made of several materials, including perhaps 4130. I'm wondering if the 280's will be enough...or am I just looking at potentially lighter cuts on the harder material. As a mechanic and all around shop rat I have on several occasions come to the conclusion that bigger is not always better, but it is sometimes necessary. What machine are you using and what are you cutting with it? The more I look into this the more I'm convincing my self that finesse is more important than brute strength. I want this machine to be as versatile as it can be, if I can fulfill all my needs with the 280's that would suit me just fine. I'd rather not give up the speed of the lower torque steppers if they will do the job without a problem.

[P Riedie]

If you are using the Xylotex drive stick with the smaller motors.
to many people make the mistake of thinking bigger is faster, better etc but you only have so much to play with.

PR.

[S_J_H]

I made everything including the dampers and did the conversion myself.
I'm using dual preloaded ballnuts on the x and Y axis. Under .0005" backlash. Well under .0005" actually. The mill will easily rapid at 100ipm but for total reliability from lost steps I reduce that to 65IPM.

I figure less than 2000$ including the mill, electronics and all mechanical conversion parts.
Hard to say about the cutting and feed. If I increase the spindle speed it's easy to run at 30ipm .1" deep full width slot cuts using a 3/8" endmill. But at typical 2000 rpm I may only run at 10ipm. I pretty much keep cut depth to .1" in aluminum as most parts I make are cutouts from sheet so the endmill is always doing a slot cut.
The drive/motors do not limit cutting though if that is a question. It'll snap a 3/8" endmill in half in a blick of an eye. I just progam my feeds and DOC very conservatively. But it must have the dampers on the motors for it to run smoothly.

Steve

[Stepper Monkey]

Originally Posted by P Riedie If you are using the Xylotex drive stick with the smaller motors. to many people make the mistake of thinking bigger is faster, better etc but you only have so much to play with. PR.

I would agree fully there. The 280's are a much better match for the Xylotex. In fact, not even they are driven to quite thier full capacity by the Xylotex, so bigger motors certainly don't help any, quite the opposite actually.
If in the future you upgrade, I would suggest upgrading to more powerful drivers first, and still keeping the 280's as they still have room to grow. 280 oz motors with 48v-60v and full rated amperage will perform much better than with the Xylotex. Certainly better than any giant motor driven to only a fraction of its potential.

[cyclestart]

Originally Posted by S_J_H I figure less than 2000$ including the mill, electronics and all mechanical conversion parts.

Wow, that's impressive, Hope you spotted the period (.) after the maybe in my last post. That's one lovely conversion and a testament to ingenuity over $. Reaffirms my idea that the complete ballscrew kits being offered are not the best route for many of us.

I also bought the 425's although the xylotex site doesn't really encourage the idea if you read the fine print. The larger motors were purchased in case the next project uses geckos with a larger power supply. Probably not great reasoning in hindsight.