Grizzly mini mill? Is it good? How bout cnc?

[SupermotoAbuser]

I am 16 years old and I LOVE machining. I am looking into purchasing a mini mill for my garage. I have been looking at the grizzly G8689, or possibly the G1005Z or something under 2 grand. Does grizzy make good machines? What other companies make mini mills that are good? The reason I am so interested in the G8689 is because i saw a cnc conversion kit for it. Do they make cnc kits for the ones that are a little bigger? Does the cnc kit run mastercam programs or do you have to program it by hand? Sorry for all the questions. Any help would be appreciated

[Brass_Machine]

Couple of questions first...

1. how big are the parts you want to machine?

2. what materials?

With those answered, you will get responses.

I currently own the HF version of the G8689. You will find it referred to by its manufacturer name here. The Seig X2. Do some searches for that and you will find a wealth of info.

Being 16 and all, I have to ask a few more questions... Have you ever used a metal machine before? I only ask, not because I don't think you can't handle it, but because you have to respect the machine (even though it is small). Folllow good safety practices and the like.

If not, maybe you good find someone to mentor you or a vocational program?

[in2steam]

Originally Posted by SupermotoAbuser I am 16 years old and I LOVE machining. I am looking into purchasing a mini mill for my garage. I have been looking at the grizzly G8689, or possibly the G1005Z or something under 2 grand. Does grizzy make good machines? What other companies make mini mills that are good? The reason I am so interested in the G8689 is because i saw a cnc conversion kit for it. Do they make cnc kits for the ones that are a little bigger? Does the cnc kit run mastercam programs or do you have to program it by hand? Sorry for all the questions. Any help would be appreciated

You know this post is funny, at sixteen I was working in a machine shop and I wanted nothing to do with it then again I was sweeping the floor. The machines in that shop went so low that you could have gotten 3 or 4 of the small x1's. And they were nice too, old K&T(kearny and Trucker) and bridgeports. At any rate I digress.

First off, I would ask your mom and dad if they are going to let you have it and make them realize there will be chips from it. So if you garage is coinhabited by a moms vehicle you may need to be on the same page as her, as I know my wife would probably make me and or my son move out.
Second, you should know how the machine operates properly, I assume that you can take industrial shop classes at your school, it would be wise to be inrolled in those if not already, there are alot of little things that you need to know over and above just buying the mill.
Grizzly does not make any machines they are strictly a resaler who rebrands other peoples equipment the majority coming from china.(although I don't know about alot of the woodworking equipment). And yes for the most part the equipment is fine, the Sieg made items seem to be of better value then some of the others who include jet and rong fu amongst many others. They have excellent service and carry many parts in stock.


The Sieg X2 (grizzly 8689) is sold by many other companies(Harbor Frieght, Micro Mark, Cummins, Homier) so you should do your homework before you buy it, you may save your self some money. Also don't forget to add the shipping into the total price or that might bite you in the rear. If you have a harbor freight store near by they will more then likely carry it and you can save yourself on freight. This machine has been succesfully turned into cnc by many people. If you look at CNC fusion they sell a kit with ballscrews which improves the normal preformace besides adding cnc(you still have to buy motors, and controls). I recommend that you do alot research before you go and buy anything, there are pricey out of the box kits which only require a computer but they are expensive and out of your stated price range. You should also consider that turning that machine into a cnc will run around $1500 more if you buy some of the available kits. I was in a thread the other day that was quoting $550(cncfusion) and $475(xylotex) for conversion and stepper and controls if memory serves. The only draw back is that this machine runs a spindle taper of MT#3 and thats really minor. There are tons of mods and tooling for these machines and I would say is an a very good starter that will hold its resale value well.

Other companies that make or more properly sells mills( in reality that are not any producers in your price range in the states anymore.) are industrail hobbies(which is considerably larger) and little over 2 grand depending upon shipping zone. Its a big machine and its well suited to larger parts in one of their pictures they show a small block chevy on the mill. A company called lathemasters sells the zay series of mill, which are also larger. The Sieg x3 is also sold by grizzly(g0463) harbor freight and cummins is also an excellent mill for its price, and is the bigger brother of the X2.
The other mill you were asking about I know nothing about save that its a round column mill. These are not very easy to convert to CNC, and they don't in my opinion cut as nice as square or dovetail column mills because the head can spin while cutting. I use a rong fu 30 at work and its a piece of crap compared to some of the same sized sqaure column mills mainly because if you take a heavy cut the mill swings sideways. They are very good drill presses, there side milling abilty is less then par however.
As for what software you will need mastercam is the first and second steps of the cnc process, you will need the third as well as the hardware. The third being the machine code translator, I would only recomend mach 2 by artsoft. The sequence of events goes like this,
You have the idea, you draw the idea in CAD, after you are done drawing it you transfer it to CAM, were the machine code is generated(G-code) which is then downloaded to the computer and run by the machine code operator (mach 2) which runs the mill and you produce the part. You can also just use the Mach 2 to run the machine by manually creating a program or jogging the mill, its alot to learn but if you have good computer skills it should not be to hard. A good understanding of X,Y,Z planes as used in algerbra helps and some of the terms used are the same like relative and absoulte.

If you build this unit into CNC you need to have a firm understanding of electrical and mechanincal controls also, its not hard but you should understand that this is not like working with a cars electronics, one wrong wire and you could fry several hundred dollards worth of drivers, or worse you. Also you or someone else can get hurt very easily while these machines are running.
The other thing you need to take into consideration is that you need to buy other things, like tooling, collets, vises, clamp downs, measure equipement, and of course material to make chips with.

In the end if I know what I know now, i would have started at 16, so go for it and there are never any dumb questions, only ones asked too late!

chris

[SupermotoAbuser]

Originally Posted by Flood Couple of questions first... 1. how big are the parts you want to machine? 2. what materials? With those answered, you will get responses. I currently own the HF version of the G8689. You will find it referred to by its manufacturer name here. The Seig X2. Do some searches for that and you will find a wealth of info. Being 16 and all, I have to ask a few more questions... Have you ever used a metal machine before? I only ask, not because I don't think you can't handle it, but because you have to respect the machine (even though it is small). Folllow good safety practices and the like. If not, maybe you good find someone to mentor you or a vocational program?

1. Mostly small parts like triple clamps for a motorcycle. Probably around 9 by 4.

2. 90 percent of parts would be alluminum. Some steel. I don't expect to ever do titanium.

I would appriciate some more info on the model mill you own though. Mabe some pics of parts you have made. What is the biggest part you have made with it. I have experience with mills before. I have been in a class at my high school for a couple years. I can do mastercam programing and run the program on a cnc mill that is in the shop. I also work at a machine shop.

[Tim Wiltse]

Well keep in mind that the travel on a CNC'ed X2 is about X=7" Y=3.5" give or take a little.

It's nice to see a teenager who is into something else besides going to the mall and video games!!!! Big props Bro!!!

LAter,
Tim

[SupermotoAbuser]

Originally Posted by in2steam You know this post is funny, at sixteen I was working in a machine shop and I wanted nothing to do with it then again I was sweeping the floor. The machines in that shop went so low that you could have gotten 3 or 4 of the small x1's. And they were nice too, old K&T(kearny and Trucker) and bridgeports. At any rate I digress. First off, I would ask your mom and dad if they are going to let you have it and make them realize there will be chips from it. So if you garage is coinhabited by a moms vehicle you may need to be on the same page as her, as I know my wife would probably make me and or my son move out. Second, you should know how the machine operates properly, I assume that you can take industrial shop classes at your school, it would be wise to be inrolled in those if not already, there are alot of little things that you need to know over and above just buying the mill. Grizzly does not make any machines they are strictly a resaler who rebrands other peoples equipment the majority coming from china.(although I don't know about alot of the woodworking equipment). And yes for the most part the equipment is fine, the Sieg made items seem to be of better value then some of the others who include jet and rong fu amongst many others. They have excellent service and carry many parts in stock. The Sieg X2 (grizzly 8689) is sold by many other companies(Harbor Frieght, Micro Mark, Cummins, Homier) so you should do your homework before you buy it, you may save your self some money. Also don't forget to add the shipping into the total price or that might bite you in the rear. If you have a harbor freight store near by they will more then likely carry it and you can save yourself on freight. This machine has been succesfully turned into cnc by many people. If you look at CNC fusion they sell a kit with ballscrews which improves the normal preformace besides adding cnc(you still have to buy motors, and controls). I recommend that you do alot research before you go and buy anything, there are pricey out of the box kits which only require a computer but they are expensive and out of your stated price range. You should also consider that turning that machine into a cnc will run around $1500 more if you buy some of the available kits. I was in a thread the other day that was quoting $550(cncfusion) and $475(xylotex) for conversion and stepper and controls if memory serves. The only draw back is that this machine runs a spindle taper of MT#3 and thats really minor. There are tons of mods and tooling for these machines and I would say is an a very good starter that will hold its resale value well. Other companies that make or more properly sells mills( in reality that are not any producers in your price range in the states anymore.) are industrail hobbies(which is considerably larger) and little over 2 grand depending upon shipping zone. Its a big machine and its well suited to larger parts in one of their pictures they show a small block chevy on the mill. A company called lathemasters sells the zay series of mill, which are also larger. The Sieg x3 is also sold by grizzly(g0463) harbor freight and cummins is also an excellent mill for its price, and is the bigger brother of the X2. The other mill you were asking about I know nothing about save that its a round column mill. These are not very easy to convert to CNC, and they don't in my opinion cut as nice as square or dovetail column mills because the head can spin while cutting. I use a rong fu 30 at work and its a piece of crap compared to some of the same sized sqaure column mills mainly because if you take a heavy cut the mill swings sideways. They are very good drill presses, there side milling abilty is less then par however. As for what software you will need mastercam is the first and second steps of the cnc process, you will need the third as well as the hardware. The third being the machine code translator, I would only recomend mach 2 by artsoft. The sequence of events goes like this, You have the idea, you draw the idea in CAD, after you are done drawing it you transfer it to CAM, were the machine code is generated(G-code) which is then downloaded to the computer and run by the machine code operator (mach 2) which runs the mill and you produce the part. You can also just use the Mach 2 to run the machine by manually creating a program or jogging the mill, its alot to learn but if you have good computer skills it should not be to hard. A good understanding of X,Y,Z planes as used in algerbra helps and some of the terms used are the same like relative and absoulte. If you build this unit into CNC you need to have a firm understanding of electrical and mechanincal controls also, its not hard but you should understand that this is not like working with a cars electronics, one wrong wire and you could fry several hundred dollards worth of drivers, or worse you. Also you or someone else can get hurt very easily while these machines are running. The other thing you need to take into consideration is that you need to buy other things, like tooling, collets, vises, clamp downs, measure equipement, and of course material to make chips with. In the end if I know what I know now, i would have started at 16, so go for it and there are never any dumb questions, only ones asked too late! chris

It won't be a problem to put it in my garage. I say MY garage because I obtained it as a birthday present in August. I work on dirt bikes a lot in there and it was the best present my parents could have given me. I do have experience with cnc machines. There is this old bridgeport manual mill at my school and it is converted to cnc. It has a box on it with a screen and it displays the x y and z positions. From the box on it it can be programmed to do position drilling, mill from point, circles and other things that I can't think of now. You can actually do a lot with the machine like that without mastercam or anything. Is there anything like that for the little mills. What I think I am going to do is buy the little mill and just use it as is for a while. Then Ill decide if CNC is something I want for this machin of if a want something a little bigger. The main thing that worries me about it is only 4 inches of y axis travel.

[SupermotoAbuser]

Originally Posted by Tim Wiltse Well keep in mind that the travel on a CNC'ed X2 is about X=7" Y=3.5" give or take a little. It's nice to see a teenager who is into something else besides going to the mall and video games!!!! Big props Bro!!! LAter, Tim

Thanks man. Im actually looking at the sx3 now.

[in2steam]

Originally Posted by SupermotoAbuser Thanks man. Im actually looking at the sx3 now.

Just so you know I talked to grizzly a week ago and they were on backorder for about a month. The Csr said 4-6 weeks but could not give me a exact date.. They did have the regualar x3's in stock at that moment.

I will give you my honest opinion, if you have a whole garage to yourself, and its got a concrete floor, I would try and get something bigger, you can(I say this loosely) get a bridgeport in used condition for sometimes next to nothing if you can find the means to move it. Keep in mind you will more then likely either need 3 phase or a converter or a single pahse motor. I have more then once seen at auction nice bridgeports go for $250-300, some with collets and all.

Otherwise I would try and at least get an X3, but I would not rule out the Industrial hobbies machine, albiet a touch expensive it will do alot more work suited to you. Say you want to go through a engine tranny or such, plus they offer cnc kits(they are more then the mill though) to upgrade later.

If you have mastercam experience you are already one leg up on me because I just have cad and real minumal g-code experience. Yes the mach 2 control software can do what refered to as canned moves, drill a number of holes, do pockets, etc. You can also builld a MPG(manual pulse generator) dial to do manual jogs or just use the keyboard commands. Mach is a very powerful peice of software on its own, but if you have the power to use CAM then you are really ahead of the curve. The box you are refering too is more then likely an older series bridgeport, most if not all machine tools used there own machine operators which were hardwired to the mill. The box you would have to build but its not hard, and it gives you alot more flexiblity. You are replacing the box with a computer, and a power supply for the drives/motors, motor drivers, a breakout board(this is not needed but recomended), and the motors and maybe a few switchs to prevent overtravel and create a home.

Some sites you should look at are Gecko, Industrial Hobbies(these are servos), CNCfusion, Artofcnc(mach software they have tons of videos), PMDX(they sell break out boards), xylotex, and read the forums here(there are a lot of sub forums from these companies). If you do a search before you ask a question you will more then likely get it answered.

chris

[SupermotoAbuser]

Originally Posted by in2steam Just so you know I talked to grizzly a week ago and they were on backorder for about a month. The Csr said 4-6 weeks but could not give me a exact date.. They did have the regualar x3's in stock at that moment. I will give you my honest opinion, if you have a whole garage to yourself, and its got a concrete floor, I would try and get something bigger, you can(I say this loosely) get a bridgeport in used condition for sometimes next to nothing if you can find the means to move it. Keep in mind you will more then likely either need 3 phase or a converter or a single pahse motor. I have more then once seen at auction nice bridgeports go for $250-300, some with collets and all. Otherwise I would try and at least get an X3, but I would not rule out the Industrial hobbies machine, albiet a touch expensive it will do alot more work suited to you. Say you want to go through a engine tranny or such, plus they offer cnc kits(they are more then the mill though) to upgrade later. If you have mastercam experience you are already one leg up on me because I just have cad and real minumal g-code experience. Yes the mach 2 control software can do what refered to as canned moves, drill a number of holes, do pockets, etc. You can also builld a MPG(manual pulse generator) dial to do manual jogs or just use the keyboard commands. Mach is a very powerful peice of software on its own, but if you have the power to use CAM then you are really ahead of the curve. The box you are refering too is more then likely an older series bridgeport, most if not all machine tools used there own machine operators which were hardwired to the mill. The box you would have to build but its not hard, and it gives you alot more flexiblity. You are replacing the box with a computer, and a power supply for the drives/motors, motor drivers, a breakout board(this is not needed but recomended), and the motors and maybe a few switchs to prevent overtravel and create a home. Some sites you should look at are Gecko, Industrial Hobbies(these are servos), CNCfusion, Artofcnc(mach software they have tons of videos), PMDX(they sell break out boards), xylotex, and read the forums here(there are a lot of sub forums from these companies). If you do a search before you ask a question you will more then likely get it answered. chris

I am getting at least the X3. The industrial hobbies machine is in the picture but id have to wait a little longer. http://www.syilamerica.com/product_h4.asp or this one which is an x3 that is already converted to cnc. Where do you get the mach 2 software at? I want to just get the x3 now and convert to cnc later but I don't know where to get a kit for it.

[wizard]

Just to reinforce Chris's suggestion, you can get more machine by going used. It is something to consider. In any event if you are to machine steel with any rapidity you will need the largest machine you can afford. Your experiences with the schools CNC'ed Bridgeport will not transfer to the smaller machines well.

That is not to say that you can't machine steel with an X3 as you most certainly can. The problem is that it will be a much slower effort. Of course with a CNC'ed machine this doesn't mean much from the fatigue standpoint.

Interesting that you are starting out with a Mill. I was very young when I got my first drill press also. That stayed in my parents garage for a long time and I still have it. Unfortunately I went cheap at the time so it has never been a really good drill press, but I do have a project in the back of my mind to upgrade it to be a much more useful machine. sounds like you are on the right track though with regards to going with a mill first. Seems to be a good fit for your interests.

Dave

[SupermotoAbuser]

Ill be looking on ebay and craigslist for a used bridgeport of larger mill. Anywhere else I can look?

[in2steam]

Originally Posted by SupermotoAbuser Ill be looking on ebay and craigslist for a used bridgeport of larger mill. Anywhere else I can look?

I would actually only use ebay as a guide, purchasing through ebay can be very expensive once you start adding transport costs(unless you find a local), and you cannot look(unless local) at the machine you have purchased. There two places I would start, first is look up the registered auctioneers for your state, see if they have lists for auctions and if they have websites which many do these days. The other option is to look used machinery dealers, they tend have alot of bridgeports but also want more since they themselves go to auctions and buy them.
One of the other things is go to your school teacher and seen when and if they are going to upgrade there current equipement, often buisnesses give away machines as right offs, esp if you live in a tax hell state like I do. Schools will often turn around and sell or auction those machines off. The same thing goes with tech colleges and universties. Auctions can be listed in local newspapers along with plane old for sale seciton. Sheriff auctions, federal auctions(GSA), and state auctions are also listed looking under the agency. I would go to a couple auctions and watch as they can be a unique experience esp if you have ever been to a farm auction. You will need to take an adult and all of the ones I deal with take 10% over sale(plus tax) and only cash, or a certiified letter from your bank with an account limit.

Another type of mill you might come across is the Hardinge Um, its in my opionion better but its a horz. and you can get a vertical head for it. But that is one of those he says/ she says arguments. There are anumber of good american mills, clausing/atlas, k&t(these tend to be big), hardinge, cincinnati(spelling) and B&S(be warned they use their own taper).
Some things you need to watch for are the spindle taper, and votlage hook up and any unusal add ons like hang on cnc(they are pain to fix and hard to find parts for). I personally would avoid gear and variable speed head bridgeports sticking with the 2 speed(hi-lo)multi belt desgin.You need to figure out your power budget also, if you only have single phase power you are going to be limited to about 2HP motor. You need to determine maxium amperge and votlage that you have, plus figure running lamps and heaters etc.
chris