X3 or RF45 clone?

[logjammer]

Hi guys I am at a crossroad and I would like your input on which way to go. I currently own a Seig 7x12 lathe and a an X2 mill, I have had them for a couple of years now and have stocked up on tooling and complimentery items. I feel I have out grown the limitations of the X2 and I am ready to move up to either the X3 or a RF 45 clone from either Lathemaster or Grizzly. I will be keeping my new machine manual with the addition of DRO. I have heard that the fit and finish of The X3 is superior to that of the X2, that is a big plus in my book. I would like to hear from guys that have the RF45 clone to comment on it's quality and fit and finish and if they can compare it to the X3. I make one off parts out of aluminum and steel (not hardened or super tough steel mainly mild). The X2 worked good with aluminum but the steel gave it more of a hard time, that's why I want a bigger stouter mill mainly. does the X3 handle mild steel with ease or would I be better off going one step higher to the RF45 clone? I appreciate any comments or if there is anything I have missed.

[Runner4404spd]

i bought the largest RF45 clone from Industrial hobbies. it is a great machine and i can't say enough good things about it. needed very few tweaks to get it up and running. in any case they don't sell it any more and thats just a shame. the other RF45s are supposedly pretty good, but they will all need tweaks to get them just right. its not a bridgeport after all.

[logjammer]

I think that machine looks awesome, I was shocked when I first saw the pic of the engine block sitting on the table.

[philbur]

I think the key issue for you will be spindle speed. You are presummably working with small components and cutters. Look at what size cutters you use then calculate the appropriate spindle speeds. An X3 has a higher spindle speed out of the box and it is much easier to upgrade the speed if needed. Running a higher spindle speed also makes the machine effectively stiffer, because the torque is lower for a given material removal rate. 1600 rpm with a 0.25" cutter on aluminium can be very slow going. The RF45 is OK if you really need the table size.

Regards
Phil

Originally Posted by logjammer Hi guys I am at a crossroad and I would like your input on which way to go. I currently own a Seig 7x12 lathe and a an X2 mill, I have had them for a couple of years now and have stocked up on tooling and complimentery items. I feel I have out grown the limitations of the X2 and I am ready to move up to either the X3 or a RF 45 clone from either Lathemaster or Grizzly. I will be keeping my new machine manual with the addition of DRO. I have heard that the fit and finish of The X3 is superior to that of the X2, that is a big plus in my book. I would like to hear from guys that have the RF45 clone to comment on it's quality and fit and finish and if they can compare it to the X3. I make one off parts out of aluminum and steel (not hardened or super tough steel mainly mild). The X2 worked good with aluminum but the steel gave it more of a hard time, that's why I want a bigger stouter mill mainly. does the X3 handle mild steel with ease or would I be better off going one step higher to the RF45 clone? I appreciate any comments or if there is anything I have missed.

[logjammer]

I can live with 1600 rpm on a .25 mill in aluminum if I have to, as long as the mill will work mild steel ok. for example I might need to mill a slot in .50" thick steel with a .25" or .50" endmill. That is an example of some of the toughest jobs it will see.

[Halfnutz]

Ive allways heard that you should get the largest mill you can afford.

[Pres]

The biggest problem I've had with a column mill vs slide mill is
when trying to move the head up or down.

For (a frequent) example:
I'm located over the area where I need to drill a farily deep hole.

1st, I use a (short) center drill for location accuracy.

2nd, use a regular drill bit (a few inches longer than c'drill)

3rd, if it then needs reaming or a c'bore, those bits are usually longer.
With only 3-5" quill travel it simply runs out of travel.
No problem, just loosen the head and raise it up
.. EXCEPT now the X-Y location has (probably) moved!
No problem if you put an indicator on the spindle while CAREFULLY raising it up for the longer tool.

It's just a pita having one extra setup on each hole.
Lottsa holes= lottsa pita.
(it's enough of a problem to reset Z, let alone X-Y on each hole)

IMHO, If you don't drill holes that require tool changes that exceed the quill travel then a round column vs slide is pretty much a non-issue when all other features are comparable.

Good luck,
Pres

[logjammer]

Originally Posted by Pres The biggest problem I've had with a column mill vs slide mill is when trying to move the head up or down. For (a frequent) example: I'm located over the area where I need to drill a farily deep hole. 1st, I use a (short) center drill for location accuracy. 2nd, use a regular drill bit (a few inches longer than c'drill) 3rd, if it then needs reaming or a c'bore, those bits are usually longer. With only 3-5" quill travel it simply runs out of travel. No problem, just loosen the head and raise it up .. EXCEPT now the X-Y location has (probably) moved! No problem if you put an indicator on the spindle while CAREFULLY raising it up for the longer tool. It's just a pita having one extra setup on each hole. Lottsa holes= lottsa pita. (it's enough of a problem to reset Z, let alone X-Y on each hole) IMHO, If you don't drill holes that require tool changes that exceed the quill travel then a round column vs slide is pretty much a non-issue when all other features are comparable. Good luck, Pres

Hey Pres I think you are assuming that I am talking about one of the RF31 clones. The RF45 clones that I am refering to are square column with a dovetailed Z axis. I could be wrong though.

[philbur]

That is a much quoted phrase but I think it needs to be qualified by what size and type of work you intend to do. For example if you are doing small work and require 10,000 rpm then a Taig would possibly be more suitable than and RF45. Also a small, good quality mill can produce better results than a large lower quality.

Buying the biggest you can afford is kinda future proofing and you should of course keep an eye on this aspect but not make it your primary goal, otherwise you may find you have traded away features you would find useful today in order to aquire features that you may not need in the future.

Regards
Phil

Originally Posted by Halfnutz Ive allways heard that you should get the largest mill you can afford.

[logjammer]

One thing that I haven't heard about is the quality of the hand controls on RF45 clones. I know it will be stout enough for me but keep in mind I will not be CNCing this machine so it needs to have good manual controls. I believe the x3 will be good enough in the fit and finish department but just how crude is the RF45 CLONE in stock trim? If I am going to have to do alot of work to it just get the back lash and accuracy to a workable level then I'll propably just go x3. That is one of the main deciding factors in my descision. Thanks for all the excellent posts and keep them coming.

[JRouche]

Originally Posted by logjammer One thing that I haven't heard about is the quality of the hand controls on RF45 clones. I believe the x3 will be good enough in the fit and finish department but just how crude is the RF45 CLONE in stock trim?

Seems since they are both outta similar, if not the same shop in china the fit and finish is gonna be very similar.

Just because a mill carries the tag of a RF-45(clone) or an X3 does not mean the fit and finish is gonna be consistent.

An example would be buying an X3 from harbor freight (if they have it yet, they will no doubt soon) and buying one from grizzly or lathemaster. The fit and finish from grizzly and lathermaster have shown to be nicer in the past.

As for which machine to get between an X3 or a RF-45 variant. If you could afford it and had the room I would go with the 45.

As for spindle speeds. It is real easy to speed up the cutter with various modes of spindle speeders or VFD and three phase motor. But it is real difficult to stretch the capacity (horse power and table size) of a smaller machine.

I have a bridgeport and I am pretty sure I can cut anything a Taig can cut. My 45 could also make anything the Taig or X3 could. Hard to say the same about the smaller mills. Heck, the larger mill can make the smaller one...JRouche

[DiscretePID]

Well... I was faced with the same decision a while back. I just couldn't decide, so I bought both!!!

One thing to keep in mind is that while X3 is made by only one factory (Sieg), RF45 clones come from several different sources. X3 quality seems to be fairly consistent, regardless of which importer you buy it from. I would hazard a guess that by now, all the new X3s carry the same new larger dimensions.

The Industrial Hobby mill can probably be considered best and hugest of the Chinese square column bench top mills. Aaron had them built to his specs (larger work envelope and hardened gears, etc.), and the price reflect it accordingly. Unfortunately, it is no longer available for those who are willing to shell out $2K for bench top mill. Personally, if I were to spend that much on a mill, I would rather spend even more and get a BP-clone instead.

The Lathemaster ZAY7045 is a very close cousin to the IH mill. I suspect it is probably made by the same factory. Spindle speed is a bit lower compared to the X3, but not really all that much. I read some X3 owner sped up the X3 spindle speed and the bearings got warm. Anyhow, if you aren't looking to CNC the mill for high speed production, spindle speed isn't really as big a deal as some folks make it out to be. You need to match the spindle speed to the feed rate. If you are cranking by hand, super high spindle speed is merely a waster of power.


Don't get duped into believing the RF45 clones' handles & wheels are crude compared to the X3. From what I can see, they are about the typical Chinese generic look and feel, which is to say: adequately functional, but lacking the refined and balanced feel of a precision polished triball like on BP or good quality BP clones.

My currently intent is to keep the ZAY7045 manual and convert my X3 to CNC. The reason is singular and simple - cost. I can easily get a full mechanical kit for CNCing the X3 for less than $600. The same kit for ZAY45 starts at more than $2000.

I really don't know which one to recommend, as I like both mills very much. The bigger ZAY45 does have an overall slightly rougher finish feel, but ONLY at places where a beautiful finish is not required for precision operation. To me, I could care less whether the bondo jobs are not as pretty and underside unmachined casting surfaces are ugly. They affect precision exactly none. In fact, if that helps saves cost, I am all for it. The important places are done appropriately: ways appear handscraped and everything work smoothly and fairly tightly.

Lastly, I cannot vouch for other RF45 clones, as I have no first hand experience.