RF45-sized CNC mill -- DIY or turnkey?

[cnczoner]

Hi all,

Evaluating if I should get a larger CNC mill... Currently I have a converted HF geared-head mill, with ~14" X, 7" Y, 5" Z travel, 1.5hp motor with 1500 RPM spindle speed. I'm mostly milling plastics or PCB's nowadays and would like to get something with more speed (say 3000+ RPM) and some more XY travel (At least 18" x 8"). R8.

I can keep my existing PC, monitor, controller, drivers, PS, software, etc, so I'd first lean towards machine with brackets, ballscrews, in place, ready for motors & controller. But I'll make the time to convert if it saves me some money. No hard budget, but I'd like to keep it within $4k-$5k if possible, and will go a couple more if it makes sense to do so.

So far the Tormach 1100 and Syil X6 look great, but at $8.5k+ they're more than I want to spend currently. So I'm investigating DIY options.

The RF-45's seems like a good minimum, but the so far, a good starting machine seems to be a hybrid of something like a Enco RF-45 equivalent table/base with the column and head from a G0704. But would be nice if I could get a slightly more powerful motor, with a VFD, and would prefer to have a mill-only head than a mill-drill.

Those two machines would add up to $3.1k, before any CNC components, ballscrews, etc. Any better options? I'm sure there are other mills I'm not aware of. Thanks.

[ninefinger]

If you're ok with DIY then Novakon has a "deal" going on now.
They have their NM-145 on clearance for $3950, 14x8x12" travels.
NO WARRANTY.

But you would get a mostly put together cnc machine with a few bugs to work out.

NM-145 | Novakon

I have no experience with Novakon and I'm not recommending them - just pointing out another option.

****I just reread your post about wanting 18" x travel so this fails on that point but has the higher speed you were looking for****
Mike

[LUCKY13]

Buying two machine to reach you rgoal would be very wastefull, and for all the wrong reasons. I am guessing you rthoughts of buying one for the head/spindle and putting it on a RF-45 was because of you wanting higher speeds at the spindle. This can be achived without going down a long expeincive road like this.


Its not hard to add a high speed spindle setup on a mill. Either by adding a second spindle mounted on the side of the head ( a very populor option), or by incressing the factory spindle speed through modifications, or by adding what they call a speeder which hooks to the end of the spindle itself and tripples the speed ( this option works very good but looses Z axis room). Adding a higher speed spindle on the side of the head is probably one of the easest ways, and this allows you to reach very high RPM to meet you rhigh speed needs, and then retain the factory setup for metal jobs.


I am not sure if what you might need is a good router. If all your jobs are really PCB's and plastic then a router would make a lot of sense. PLus you could keep your other mill for any metal cutting jobs you wished to do.

This could also be done cheap enough that you could afford to add the motors and controls to the router without robbing off your other machine. Plus a router would do the type jobs you wish to do much easier and faster, with the room to do multiple jobs on one setup.


But if a mill is what you want, I would second the thought of the deal on the Novakon. All though I just looked at one place that had this deal and they dont show it anymore, so it may not be on sale now IDK. But if it is thats a hard price to beat.


Now to buy a mill and build from scratch I would look into the MD001 from
https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.co...log/index.html

This is like the mac daddy of the RF-45 machines and this machine has proven to be very good from many on the forum. Now it would need the extra work for higher spindle speeds either by adding a side mount spindle (most people either use a router/grinder or build something that you can use the factory spindle to drive a belt and drive the second spindle mounted on the side of the head). Or many people have modded this spindle to run up as high as 6000 RPM with motor changes and bearing upgrades. You have to build a CNC kit though which if you have a machine already probabaly is not a bad thing.

They also have the the BF-30 and the BF46 (Optimum Vario is the brand)which are very well built machines. Possibly one of the highest quality benchtop machines out there ( they are built in Germany). Both have a factory spindle speed of 3300 and the machines come factory scraped on the ways with many other nice things about the build of the machine. The BF-46 is a hot rodded RF-45 (only heaver) and the BF-30 is a version of the GO704 mills I think. They also claim these machines to be CNC ready which includes having screw bearing holders with a bearing setup ready for no backlash. . For $3500.00 they have CNC kits made for both of these machines which makes either one a very attractive package when you do a retrofit to one. There is not to many machines with a designed compete kits out there and I really like there setups. Buy the machine, buy there kit, put it together and start machining. Hard to beat and with the quality of there setup it makes it even better.

Here is a link to the main manufacture of these mills but I think its easier to buy at the link I gave.
Optimum Machines: BF 46 Vario


These machines have a three speed spindle gear, plus infinately variable speed control. I am not sure if this is a three phase or DC motor setup to give them the variable speed, but which ever it is I am sure there is a way to extend the speed even more either by going to a different controller or even through ajustment on the factory board. They list the motor as 220volts but it could feeding a DC or be 3 phase and if not I am pretty sure a 3 phase setup is offered ( this would give more speed). They already have a better spindle bearing setup so even more speed should be handled by the bearings. And for some reason I was thinking they may even have a belt drive that the connects the three speed gears in the head to the motor. If so then a simple pulley change may be all that is needed to gain more speed ( but I am not sure on the possibility of a belt drive inside). But with 3300rpm already its pretty good. Heck a speeder added to this spindle would give 9000 plus RPM. ( BTW Tormach sales the speeder I am talking about, pretty trick setuip). If I was going to buy a machine in the RF-45 size the only thing that could sway me away fro this BF-46 would be the MD001 because of its hugh travel. But what I find interesting is even though the MD001 list as more travel the BF-46 is still a heavier machine.

There is a few CNC builds here on the zone with all these machines so you can get even more info on them or the MD001 by reading build threads.


As far as a machine that has a factory quill it really doesnt effect anything because they can be locked. And the BF-46 has a built in tapping setup that is pretty sweat ( they call it threading). At $3800.00 for the machine and $3500.00 for the CNC kit it brings it to $7300.00 and you put it together. Thats a great price for a setup of this level with the ease of building, plus the better design in the machine makes it a sweet setup. I like how they have the Y axis coming in from the back, and very nice motor mounts, variable speed spindle factory, and hand scraped ways.

Here is a link to on eBF46 buildhttp://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop_machines/131762-optimum_bf46_centroid_retrofit.html#post1083618

And you can go on U-tube amd find quite afew video's of this machine running ( quite impressive). ALso the machine in the build thread has a side mounted high speed spindle to show how this is done ( his is very nice setup).


There is alot out there these days compaired to the way it was when you built your first machine. I would look into things pretty deep and if its possible to afford keeping your first machine intact it will be worth it.



Jess

[cnczoner]

Thanks for the detailed response. Yes, I cringe at the waste (of getting two machines), but the cost total didn't seem too bad, and thought I might be able to sell some of the leftover parts to recoup some of the cost.

I've considered upgrading the speed in various ways... started engineering the router option but I wanted a "proper" router instead of a dremel, and it became more of a full project rather than a quick weekend bolt-on; Looked at swapping to a faster motor, but this metric / non-popular-in-the-US motor size ("YL" IIRC) was costly; Considered modifying to belt-drive and pulleys, but I then wanted to swap to non-oil-immersed bearings and that too became a larger project. Any of those would work, but I decided I should really first invest in a machine that has the travels I need. I do have a 7x spindle speeder, but I don't use it often as it only takes a few sizes of bits so I can't change to odd-sized drills as I can with my ER-20 collets.

FWIW, 1500 rpm works okay for me now, but if I were changing machines, 3000 rpm would be much nicer, and if possible I would prefer to drop the noisy geared-head if possible.

I'd like to do more aluminum and perhaps some steel machining, but the CNC'ed quill is not the best thing for that (rigidity), so I want to go square column now.

The Novakon does not have my primary requirement -- bigger travel, otherwise it does seem like a good deal. Also like that MDW001, but the BF46 is really sweet! But that CNC kit is freakin' expensive. The BF46 is quite a price jump from the MDW001, but I'd pay that to not have to mess with the motor and have a VFD ready to go. I just called them to check on being able to get only part of the CNC kit, and they may be able to do that, so I'm waiting on manuals so I can figure out the actual parts I would need. Ideally they'd sell me the mill and the ballscrews/nuts/brackets all the way up to the motor-mounts. I would add my motors, controller, etc. If so, I'll bite. I'll update you on how that goes. I absolutely agree that the MDW001's travels are very tempting. I seriously considered getting (with financing) an IH turnkey mill and being done with it for a while, but their lack of website update, broken links, no responses for days, very much concerned me.

[AiR_GuNNeR]

That is a great price for the Novakon...until I found this:
Novakon NM-135 Sucks NM-135 NM-145 Review

[ninefinger]

Note that I said if you want DIY for the novakon - I knew about that guys experience and I also pointed out NO WARRANTY which to me says the company selling knows its screwed up and they don't want the hassle or bother (cost) of fixing it so here it is at a discount to some industrious person who can make it work. I.e. like a scratch and dent sale but on cnc equipment.

If you're going into it looking at $4k as all the parts in a kit its not a bad deal still - even if you need to work and use your brain to figure it out and maybe throw in a few more bucks to make it run right (ie new motor controller).


Mike

[AiR_GuNNeR]

Like you said, not a bad price at all on the Novakon if you go into it expecting issues. I guess you can think of it as a partially assembled kit. I might ask them about the true speed ranged and travels as there appears to be a "misprint" in the specs. If the travels are actually smaller than the work envelope you need, then the kit is useless even at this good price. I wonder if this is the same machine as the Smithy CNC? It looks familiar. I'll need to compare them.

[cnczoner]

I won't walk into this mess just for a few bucks, and I don't need to since the travels don't meet my requirements anyway. Cost-wire, I can wait and get something bigger. But thanks for pointing this out. Besides, I had a really nice dream about the 30" x 12" travels on the MD001

[cnczoner]

BTW, I don't actually need 30" x 12", but this picture has me dreaming of the things I could do with those travels.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

You'd have to be completely crazy to try to bore any engine anywhere near that size on that mill. You'll end up with a piece of junk. Just because it fits under the quill, doesn't mean it makes sense.....

Regards,
Ray L.

[cnczoner]

I actually won't use it for boring an engine, but it just seems so non-limiting, for lack of a better phrase. Perhaps I can machine some wheels with it someday. No I know it's not a Haas, Mazak, etc, but it may be doable if I work slowly. But my original purpose is to make PCB's and dashboard plates etc that are up to 17"-18" wide and perhaps larger in the future. No more having to shift the part over and re-aligning, etc.