G0704 or G0619?

[Alistair Spence]

This is my first post here. I've been soaking up information on benchtop mills of late and you guys seem to be the ones with the most experience and opinions of the main contenders in available in the market today.

I have no plans to ever convert to CNC, I'm just looking for a compact machine that I'll use to make various bits and pieces related to custom bicycle fabrication. Both parts and jigs/fixtures in aluminum and steel.

I'm looking at benchtop mills because since I'm not a home owner I want something that's relatively easy to move when the time comes. As a renter, I'm never quite sure what will be available shop wise when I do move. I don't want to have to deal with having to move a +1000lb mill into a basement or some such awkward scenario.

I've been up to the Grizzly showroom in Bellingham WA for a look see. I was primarily interested in the G0704 since it seems to get a lot of positive reviews, but while there I must admit that the G0619/super X3 really caught my eye. The finish looked better and the overall machine just seemed more solid. Whether that translates into any actual benefits in operation, I don't know.

Grizzly lists the G0619 at $500 more than the 0704 right now and I guess my question is, do you guys feel that this is money well spent? Is the super X3 $500 better than the 0704? That $500 would buy some useful tooling, but I wouldn't mind spending the extra money on the SX3 if it's worth it.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Alistair Spence,
Seattle, WA.

[hoss2006]

For a manual mill I'd get this one and it's $300 less than the SX3.
G0705 Drill/Mill with Stand 29 inch x 8 inch Table
Tons of power, lots of quill travel, loads of travels and comes with the stand!
Hoss

[Alistair Spence]

Hoss,

that could be a good call. I haven't totally ruled out a round column machine, despite the bad rap they get. You're right, they do have quite a lot of upside in terms of travels, table size and power.

The G0705 is a bit heavier than I'm really comfortable with, but I may have to re-evaluate the number I have in my head regarding machine weight/size.

I have an old (1936) 9" Southbend lathe in my shop. It weighs around 400lbs and I'm pretty comfortable moving it around by myself using some methods that I've figured out over the time that I've had it. The SX3 appealed to me because it's right in that weight class.

Probably the most challenging thing I'll use the mill for will be mitering bicycle frame tubing, some of which is heat treated and requires a fairly rigid machine to make accurate cuts. I was thinking that the extra mass of the SX3 (compared to the G0704) might help in that operation.

The G0705 that you linked to would be even better in this regard though so I've got to give that strong consideration.

Thanks for the reply.

Alistair.

For a manual mill I'd get this one and it's $300 less than the SX3.
G0705 Drill/Mill with Stand 29 inch x 8 inch Table
Tons of power, lots of quill travel, loads of travels and comes with the stand!
Hoss

[hoss2006]

Yeah, the power and quill travel are what would appeal to me for a manual mill since
it would see use as a heavy duty drill press too for me.
The rap comes from the cnc side of it since the column couldn't be cnc'ed.
The weight of the x3 does not benefit it in terms of rigidity due to poor column and dovetail design,
the g0704 outperforms the x3 in cutting ability even with it's less mass.
Hoss

[Alistair Spence]

Hoss,

I guess I didn't fully appreciate the shortcomings of the SX3. In person it looks a lot beefier than the G0704 but it makes sense that if that extra material isn't put to use intelligent design then it's not necessarily better. Thanks for the heads up on that.

I had also been looking at the PM30 machine, which I think is a more massive version of the G0704? Doesn't look like Grizzly sells that one and although a search of the archives here shows a few threads, there doesn't seem to be too many of these machines in service.
Is that because they're hard to get, or not considered to be very good? On paper the numbers look impressive to me.

Looks like they're sold through an outfit called Quality Machine Tools. Can anyone tell me what they're like to deal with?
Buying a mill from Grizzly is appealing since in my fairly limited experience they have good customer service.
I'd be a bit more leery of buying such a large ticket item form a smaller, less well known entity, but if they have a good track record I'd give it much more serious consideration.

Is the consensus here that Quality Machine Tools are a good company to deal with?

Thanks again.

Alistair.

[hoss2006]

The pm30 would be a great choice, about double the size of the g0704 and same great design.
You are right, they just aren't very available yet.
If grizzly started selling them I'm sure there would be a big jump in popularity like the 0704 had.
I'd be one finding a home for one.
Quality Machine Tools has had great reviews and bad too but I would surely give them my business.
If I had someone that could pick one up and get it into the house for me, I would
give up my kitchen table to make room for one, need another big project anyway.
Hoss

[Alistair Spence]

Ok, got it. Sounds like I need to call about current availability of the PM30 so that I can weigh my options.

Appreciate your insight on this Hoss.

Alistair.

[wizard]

Design is very important.

Hoss,

I guess I didn't fully appreciate the shortcomings of the SX3. In person it looks a lot beefier than the G0704 but it makes sense that if that extra material isn't put to use intelligent design then it's not necessarily better. Thanks for the heads up on that.

Remember that all of these mills are effectively compromises to meet size and cost marks. If you follow along in this forum you will see lots of reports of motor & controller issues for the G0704 for example. The thing here is that motors and controllers are far easier to address.

I had also been looking at the PM30 machine, which I think is a more massive version of the G0704? Doesn't look like Grizzly sells that one and although a search of the archives here shows a few threads, there doesn't seem to be too many of these machines in service.
Is that because they're hard to get, or not considered to be very good? On paper the numbers look impressive to me.

I suspect it is directly related to lack of a large importer. The machines seem to be well received in Europe.

Grizzly does have a new larger mill but I think you need to consider the suitability of the larger mills for your situation. I would tend to support the. g0704 for apartment use, mainly due to the potential to actually install and move it as required. The hardware becomes far more difficult to handle and install as weight increases.

In my case I've taken machines apart to get them into the basement. Some reassemble easily, but drill presses and the big drill/mills are a different story. They are very top heavy with their massive heads. Even if you have lifting equipment you will have clearance problems due to low clearances. A box column mill like the G0704 gives you some advantage here in that you don't have to lift over a standing column.

Looks like they're sold through an outfit called Quality Machine Tools. Can anyone tell me what they're like to deal with?
Buying a mill from Grizzly is appealing since in my fairly limited experience they have good customer service.
I'd be a bit more leery of buying such a large ticket item form a smaller, less well known entity, but if they have a good track record I'd give it much more serious consideration.

Size isn't everything. Not everything Gizzly sells is noteworthy.

Is the consensus here that Quality Machine Tools are a good company to deal with?

Thanks again.

Alistair.

I don't really know, never heard of them. Except for tool boxes every machine I've purchased lately has come from a different source. In the end it isn't the reseller you have to worry about but rather manufacture.

As to round column mills I don't like them. This is based on only one that we had in the shop at work. A lot of that was due to the belt drive. Beyond that vertical movement of the head wasn't well done. Also the ability of that head to rotate is as much of a problem with manual use as it is CNC.

As to CNCing the mill there is nothing wrong with not wanting to do so. However there is a real concern that none of these smaller mills will be stiff enough to handle annular cutters on large tubing. A CNC upgrade may give you a route around that problem if performance isn't what you want. Beyond that CNC on a small mill makes tedious work barable, remember you don't have the machining capacity of a Bridgeport or machining center.

[Alistair Spence]

Design is very important.


Remember that all of these mills are effectively compromises to meet size and cost marks. If you follow along in this forum you will see lots of reports of motor & controller issues for the G0704 for example. The thing here is that motors and controllers are far easier to address.

.

Understood, and that makes sense. Even though this is a big ticket item for me, I know that in the grand scheme of the world of machine tools these benchtop mills are bound to be a bit rough around the edges, due to manufacturers trying to meet price points.

Grizzly does have a new larger mill but I think you need to consider the suitability of the larger mills for your situation. I would tend to support the. g0704 for apartment use, mainly due to the potential to actually install and move it as required. The hardware becomes far more difficult to handle and install as weight increases.

.

I don't live in an apartment, but I do have to consider the possibility that my next work space may be smaller, or less accessible than my current one. The g0704 definitely appeals from that perspective.

A box column mill like the G0704 gives you some advantage here in that you don't have to lift over a standing column.

.

Can you explain that a bit further? If you disassemble the mill, aren't you still left with having to slide the head back onto the column during re-assembly?

Size isn't everything. Not everything Gizzly sells is noteworthy.

.

Sure, I definitely agree. For myself, having dealt with Grizzly over the years, they are more of a known quantity to me than other sellers of this kind of equipment, so I'd feel more comfortable buying from them. Also, since they are somewhat local to me, the possibility of being able to actually go and speak directly to real people, if any problems arise, seems like a plus.
I do understand that in actual practice none of this guarantees a better or more reliable product.

In the end it isn't the reseller you have to worry about but rather manufacture.

.

True. Although if a reseller has good quality control then that would be a plus in my eyes. Also, if they're known for good customer support should problems arise that would make me more likely to do business with them, Vs a company that I've never purchased from before.

As to round column mills I don't like them. This is based on only one that we had in the shop at work. A lot of that was due to the belt drive. Beyond that vertical movement of the head wasn't well done. Also the ability of that head to rotate is as much of a problem with manual use as it is CNC.

.

Yes, losing your XY reference when changing tools does seem like it would become tedious. I suppose with good planning this disadvantage could be minimized but it's probably not completely avoidable. The square column seems like a more elegant solution.

As to CNCing the mill there is nothing wrong with not wanting to do so. However there is a real concern that none of these smaller mills will be stiff enough to handle annular cutters on large tubing. A CNC upgrade may give you a route around that problem if performance isn't what you want. Beyond that CNC on a small mill makes tedious work barable, remember you don't have the machining capacity of a Bridgeport or machining center.

.

Good point. In the world of bicycle frame building, hole saws are what is used to cope tubing, and a fairly rigid setup is needed to make accurate cuts. I really don't know if something like even a PM30 will be up to the job. This wouldn't be all I'd be using it for, but it'd be a nice bonus if I could miter tubes on the mill.
I understand the benefits of CNC, and I find the conversion work that guys on this forum are doing is very impressive. Fascinating actually. It's just not something I'm looking to get into at this time. In the future maybe? Sure, I could see that.

Alistair.

[photomankc]

Can you explain that a bit further? If you disassemble the mill, aren't you still left with having to slide the head back onto the column during re-assembly?


Alistair.[/QUOTE]

No. The head separates from the Z saddle so you just put the head back onto the boss on the saddle and bolt it down.

[Alistair Spence]

Can you explain that a bit further? If you disassemble the mill, aren't you still left with having to slide the head back onto the column during re-assembly?


Alistair.

No. The head separates from the Z saddle so you just put the head back onto the boss on the saddle and bolt it down.

Ah, of course. Got it now, thanks for the clarification.

Alistair.

[Bob La Londe]

The G0704 is pretty popular in some applications because of its square column head and large working area for its footprint. At one point Grizzly could not keep them in stock.

The G0705 looks roughly equivelent to an RF30 or RF31. I have an old RF-30 and its not a bad rough mill, but there are things you need to understand with it. You will lose position (not withstanding the laser pointer trick) when you raise and lower the head on a round column mill.

I think I would butt heads with the working envelope on G0619 almost immediately.