Costs to convert a G0704 to CNC?

[TurboGt]

So....

I have been reading the forums the last several days looking at different machines and build threads, and was wondering if you guys could help me nail down some numbers and answer a few questions?

My end goal is to move up to a Tormach but I wont have those kind of funds for a while and want to start learning on something less expensive. I would like my tooling I purchase to be forward comparable with the Tormach so I don't have to start over once I get there.

I want to build the machine right and would rather spend the money now than start with the phase 1 conversion and then move on to the phase 2... (g0704.com) The DIY factor is to save some money right now so that I can get some decent tooling and start making chips.

I will mainly be machining aluminum and softer materials, but it would be nice if I could throw some steel in there every once in a while (nothing major). I am not looking for production speeds and this will mainly be for prototyping and building my own projects. If I come up with something decent I might try and sell it, but this would be small quantities. Most parts will be smaller in size for robotic projects and maybe some bike parts.

I know there are lots of things needed to get a CNC machine in a usable state but would like to limit this discussion to the machine and controlling electronics. I know that prices can be all over the place depending on how much you are willing to do on your own so I am just looking for ball park values. If you have built a machine and care to throw your own numbers up that would be much appreciated.

--Machine with stand and freight: $1194

--Stepper motor driver: $300 (G540)
I see the G540 being used in lots of build threads, is this a good choice?

--Stepper motors for X,Y&Z: ???? I am still researching.... any suggestions? This kit for $650 looks nice and it comes with the controllers and power supply

--Stepper motor mounting plates: $430 from ebay seller bdtools
OR
--Stepper motor mounting plates DIY: ~$160 for plans from g0704.com + materials

--Power supply + enclosure for electronics: ???

--Ball Screws for X,Y & Z: ??? looking on CNC fusion, a kit for the X3 is $390, how much do you think for the G0704? Are the premium ones worth it for a hobby mill?

--Computer running a copy of Mach 3: $400 (includes paying for mach 3)

--MPG pendant: ~$180 for this one

-Vice: ~$300 I know you can spend more or less

--Homing switches: ???

--One shot oiling system: ???

--Three bolt head mod: $25-30 for materials??

--Misc. parts: $500 ??? this includes hardware, wiring and other items

Now I have read that some of the motors and controllers have failed on several machines, should I just jump straight to a tread mill motor? What about the controller with a tread mill motor?

What about spinal bearings? Should I replace these while I have it apart? How much do decent bearings run?

Is there anything else I am missing that should be done to the mill when converting it over?

Thanks for your help !!!!!

[wizard]

I know that sounds lie a cop out but it is true. In any event some back ground. First I haven't done a Homespun mill upgrade myself yet, so no numbers for you. However I've worked extensively in automation including custom built CNC Hardware so I have a sense of what is possible.

This at sound trite but you can pay a lot or pay a little. You can get value in what you spend or you can get empty pockets. Sometimes the worth of something is purely subjective.

So....

I have been reading the forums the last several days looking at different machines and build threads, and was wondering if you guys could help me nail down some numbers and answer a few questions?

I've been doing a lot of that reading myself. As to numbers there will be a wide range of possible figures. Your ability to scrounge will have a significant impact on your personal figure.

My end goal is to move up to a Tormach but I wont have those kind of funds for a while and want to start learning on something less expensive. I would like my tooling I purchase to be forward comparable with the Tormach so I don't have to start over once I get there.

I'm not sure if you are prepared ahead of time to get into machining. You need to realize that you will spend more on tools and tooling than you will the machine. In fact the machine specific outlay will be rather insignificant compared to setting yourself up with machinist tools, vices, clamps and other generic goodies.

I want to build the machine right and would rather spend the money now than start with the phase 1 conversion and then move on to the phase 2... (g0704.com) The DIY factor is to save some money right now so that I can get some decent tooling and start making chips.

That isn't unreasonable but you might want to consider just getting a bigger manual mills sized like the Tormach. Learn the basics before CNCing that machine. Take your time acquiring those tools, and learn which work best for your interests.

I will mainly be machining aluminum and softer materials, but it would be nice if I could throw some steel in there every once in a while (nothing major). I am not looking for production speeds and this will mainly be for prototyping and building my own projects. If I come up with something decent I might try and sell it, but this would be small quantities. Most parts will be smaller in size for robotic projects and maybe some bike parts.

Cool. A bigger stiffer mill will help with the steel parts.

I know there are lots of things needed to get a CNC machine in a usable state but would like to limit this discussion to the machine and controlling electronics. I know that prices can be all over the place depending on how much you are willing to do on your own so I am just looking for ball park values. If you have built a machine and care to throw your own numbers up that would be much appreciated.

--Machine with stand and freight: $1194

--Stepper motor driver: $300 (G540)
I see the G540 being used in lots of build threads, is this a good choice?

--Stepper motors for X,Y&Z: ???? I am still researching.... any suggestions? This kit for $650 looks nice and it comes with the controllers and power supply

--Stepper motor mounting plates: $430 from ebay seller bdtools
OR
--Stepper motor mounting plates DIY: ~$160 for plans from g0704.com + materials

--Power supply + enclosure for electronics: ???

--Ball Screws for X,Y & Z: ??? looking on CNC fusion, a kit for the X3 is $390, how much do you think for the G0704? Are the premium ones worth it for a hobby mill?

--Computer running a copy of Mach 3: $400 (includes paying for mach 3)

--MPG pendant: ~$180 for this one

-Vice: ~$300 I know you can spend more or less

--Homing switches: ???

--One shot oiling system: ???

--Three bolt head mod: $25-30 for materials??

--Misc. parts: $500 ??? this includes hardware, wiring and other items

There are simply to many variables here. You really should look for best prices on what you decide to make a machine out of. A machine built out of Compumotor or PacSci hardware will have a vastly different cost structure than a machine built out of no name 3-Bay hardware. Like wise steppers are generally cheaper than brushless servos.

Beyond that much of the hardware you need can be found on E-Bay heavily discounted or used. Beyond that auctions and close outs abound.

Now I have read that some of the motors and controllers have failed on several machines, should I just jump straight to a tread mill motor? What about the controller with a tread mill motor?

Why bother? Once the motor goes replace it with something US made and industrial. Even if you want an up front better drive I'd still prefer something that is a clear improvement. In this respect I'd rather

What about spinal bearings? Should I replace these while I have it apart? How much do decent bearings run?

Is there anything else I am missing that should be done to the mill when converting it over?

Thanks for your help !!!!!

[hoss2006]

So....

I have been reading the forums the last several days looking at different machines and build threads, and was wondering if you guys could help me nail down some numbers and answer a few questions?

My end goal is to move up to a Tormach but I wont have those kind of funds for a while and want to start learning on something less expensive. I would like my tooling I purchase to be forward comparable with the Tormach so I don't have to start over once I get there.

I want to build the machine right and would rather spend the money now than start with the phase 1 conversion and then move on to the phase 2... (g0704.com) The DIY factor is to save some money right now so that I can get some decent tooling and start making chips.

I will mainly be machining aluminum and softer materials, but it would be nice if I could throw some steel in there every once in a while (nothing major). I am not looking for production speeds and this will mainly be for prototyping and building my own projects. If I come up with something decent I might try and sell it, but this would be small quantities. Most parts will be smaller in size for robotic projects and maybe some bike parts.

The G0704 is more than capable for steel cutting, I have several videos cutting steels including stainless.

I know there are lots of things needed to get a CNC machine in a usable state but would like to limit this discussion to the machine and controlling electronics. I know that prices can be all over the place depending on how much you are willing to do on your own so I am just looking for ball park values. If you have built a machine and care to throw your own numbers up that would be much appreciated.

--Machine with stand and freight: $1194

--Stepper motor driver: $300 (G540)
I see the G540 being used in lots of build threads, is this a good choice?

--Stepper motors for X,Y&Z: ???? I am still researching.... any suggestions? This kit for $650 looks nice and it comes with the controllers and power supply

If you want great performance go with this or one of the packages I put together.
The basic or the digitals.

--Stepper motor mounting plates: $430 from ebay seller bdtools
OR
--Stepper motor mounting plates DIY: ~$160 for plans from g0704.com + materials
I'm biased but you get several options this way including front or rear Y axis belt driven or direct, same with the Z, options for extended Y and Z travels. stock or ballscrews.

--Power supply + enclosure for electronics: ???

Plenty here with the packages.

--Ball Screws for X,Y & Z: ??? looking on CNC fusion, a kit for the X3 is $390, how much do you think for the G0704? Are the premium ones worth it for a hobby mill?
The X3 kit won't work on the g0704 and they still don't seem to have the g0704 kit available yet.
I use an excellent American source CJA Masterworks.

--Computer running a copy of Mach 3: $400 (includes paying for mach 3)

Make sure it has a parallel port or you'll need to add one though pci pp cards are cheap and don't get a 64bit machine, too tricky to get working right. good ole XP works great.

--MPG pendant: ~$180 for this one

Cool ones here you can build
Texas Micro-Circuits Mini-Pendant Kit
Heres a cool wireless one.
SALE CNC Router Milling, CNC Laser, CNC plasma machine, China, Servo Motor Drive, UK, USA, Italy, Spain, Thailand
also the Shuttle RU from russia
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/mach_s...nt_russia.html

-Vice: ~$300 I know you can spend more or less
That would get you a nice Glacern 4 inch.
--Homing switches: ???
Projects2 home limits
or
Projects2 optical home/limit

--One shot oiling system: ???
Can be found all over for <$100

--Three bolt head mod: $25-30 for materials??
Most everyone has had the 2 extra bolts and nuts needed already in the toolbox that comes with the mill, cost $0.

--Misc. parts: $500 ??? this includes hardware, wiring and other items

Now I have read that some of the motors and controllers have failed on several machines, should I just jump straight to a tread mill motor? What about the controller with a tread mill motor?

That's been a much rarer occurrence these days, you get free replacements for up to a year.
The treadmill motor with controller upgrade is a nice improvement though.
Projects2

What about spinal bearings? Should I replace these while I have it apart? How much do decent bearings run?

Bearings should be fine unless you greatly increase the rpm with a belt drive,
even then they'll only run you about $30.
Bearing Upgrade

Is there anything else I am missing that should be done to the mill when converting it over?
Think about some sort of enclosure to keep chips at bay but a simple showing curtain can do the job for a while.
Plan on running flood or mist? Check under accessories for links.
www.g0704.com

Thanks for your help !!!!!

Hoss

[TurboGt]

I'm not sure if you are prepared ahead of time to get into machining. You need to realize that you will spend more on tools and tooling than you will the machine. In fact the machine specific outlay will be rather insignificant compared to setting yourself up with machinist tools, vices, clamps and other generic goodies.

That isn't unreasonable but you might want to consider just getting a bigger manual mills sized like the Tormach. Learn the basics before CNCing that machine. Take your time acquiring those tools, and learn which work best for your interests.

Wizard,

Thanks for the advice!!! I have my masters in Mechanical Engineering and spent most of my undergrad working in the advanced manufacturing lab where we would design and machine parts for the formula SAE and mini baja cars. I have programmed (somewhat simple parts) on a large 5 axis Cincinnati and helped develop a post for our high speed 5 axis Hermle. I would not say that I have a ton of experience but have know enough to be dangerous. I have a personal copy of Solidworks and FeatureCAM so I have most of the software needed. I would love to get a larger machine but the idea of getting a G0704 is that I will have more money to dump into tooling. Like you said..... thats where all the money goes anyways

hoss2006, Thanks for replying and pointing me in the right direction!!! I considered emailing you but thought other people might like to see some of the information. I have been looking around your webpage but somehow missed all of the links across the top. I was only looking at the green links down the left side of the page. Looks like I have plenty more reading to do.

[dugpits]

Wizard,

Thanks for the advice!!! I have my masters in Mechanical Engineering and spent most of my undergrad working in the advanced manufacturing lab where we would design and machine parts for the formula SAE and mini baja cars. I have programmed (somewhat simple parts) on a large 5 axis Cincinnati and helped develop a post for our high speed 5 axis Hermle. I would not say that I have a ton of experience but have know enough to be dangerous. I have a personal copy of Solidworks and FeatureCAM so I have most of the software needed. I would love to get a larger machine but the idea of getting a G0704 is that I will have more money to dump into tooling. Like you said..... thats where all the money goes anyways

Formula SAE huh? I worked on that very briefly - didn't have much extra time - when I was at Rolla getting my ME...pretty cool stuff.

Anyhow, to give some approximate numbers from my experience.

Mill+shipping ~ $1,200

Electronics - ~700-750 ?? (Don't remember exactly...that's a ballpark) Like Hoss's stuff (Keling 570's direct drive), but I went straight to digital drivers 8056D.

Machined roton ballscrews (CJA masterworks) and ballnuts from roton ~500 shipped.

Aluminum stock for motor mounts - ?? say 50 bucks.

Taps for ballnut mounts. (wtttool) - 100 bucks. I threaded mine on the lathe to save money but if you don't have one....you might be able to borrow one from someone on here.

Electronic "other" (cables, connectors, solder) - ?? 100 on the high end.

So your at around 2600 - 2700. And you still haven't bought one thing yet.




TOOLING!! (minus taps)

Tooling cost are impossible to estimate depending on if you like a certain brand...want only US made, etc. Don't forget a good vise too.

Many use tormach style tools so pretty much any tooling you get if you adapt it to the 3/4 shank Tormach style or buy tormach holders outright if you do move up to their mill later you're all set. I would say that if you are very serious about getting the Tormach later, buy the biggest vise you can that you can use on the 704. I have a nice 4" which is a nice fit for the Grizzly but would be way to small on the Tormach. Several have 5" on the 704. I would think a 6" would be too large.


For the sake of estimating, say you get a few tormach holders and a few endmills and drills and reamers...and the vice. Lets say about 1000. And that's pretty bare bones tooling.

SO..bottom line, starting from scratch to a phase 2 CNC'd G0704 mill would probably run around $3,500. I would say that's about what I put into it to that point. But then there are all the great extra features! Belt Drives and power draw bars and tool changers and axis extensions and motor upgrades and .... and .... and ... $$$$$

I've had a blast converting mine - been learning a lot - money well spent.

Have fun

-Doug

[wizard]

Wizard,

Thanks for the advice!!! I have my masters in Mechanical Engineering and spent most of my undergrad working in the advanced manufacturing lab where we would design and machine parts for the formula SAE and mini baja cars. I have programmed (somewhat simple parts) on a large 5 axis Cincinnati and helped develop a post for our high speed 5 axis Hermle.

That is actually a lot more experience than I suspected at first. Seriously you are farther ahead then many of us here.

I would not say that I have a ton of experience but have know enough to be dangerous. I have a personal copy of Solidworks and FeatureCAM so I have most of the software needed. I would love to get a larger machine but the idea of getting a G0704 is that I will have more money to dump into tooling. Like you said..... thats where all the money goes anyways

Yeah I know it is tough to balance the up front cost of a machine against other needs. Just realize a machine is really a very long term investment. I'm seriously considering coming back from Cabin Fever with a mill (Grizzly is on the way) but it is extremely difficult to buy big right now. That is also why I'm following all the G0704 threads, this mill looks like a really good value. I just have a hard time believing it is "enough" mill for the long term.

hoss2006, Thanks for replying and pointing me in the right direction!!! I considered emailing you but thought other people might like to see some of the information. I have been looking around your webpage but somehow missed all of the links across the top. I was only looking at the green links down the left side of the page. Looks like I have plenty more reading to do.

Hoss does have a nice web site. Do look at the alternative sites.

Some other things to consider:

1. You can spread out the cost of tooling and tools out over the days, months and years after you invest in your mill. While you easily end up spending more than the cost of the mill on tooling it doesn't have to happen all at once. In fact. It shouldn't as spending your wad on tooling & tools leaves little for materials for fun.
2. Depending upon your interests you may get by without some of the tooling that others see as critical. For example some use their CNC machines without a vice. From the description you have given of your interests though I don't think you will get by without a vice. The point is don't jump into purchases you don't need right away.
3. Considering your experience described above you will likely want to CNC that machine sooner than later. That does put you into a situation of spending big bucks on the CNC hardware. Depending on the avenue taken this is again a significant amount compared to the cost of the cast iron, especially on a small mill.
4. The cost of iron will only go up!!!! This reality means that you can get a lot of mill for relatively little today. Some of the price tags on Grizzly hardware have gone up by hundreds in the last year and frankly could do so again in each of the coming years. It is a good time to invest in iron.

[wizard]

Maybe it is a matter of my reluctance to count my eggs before they hatch but I wouldn't get to obsessive about buying into a quick change system before investing in the mill that uses said tooling. Tormachs system might look good right now but it is not impossible for somebody looking at a Tormach mill to simply buy an industrial mill instead and then need to fit tooling to an entirely different taper.

Sounds expensive on the surface but yet many do retrofit old mills and frankly do so relatively economically. Let's face it if you are already thinking about a CNC build as an interim to a bigger mill, that small machine might convince you to go big! So you could easily end up with Cat 40 or 30 taper tooling that you would need to buy for.

On top of that you have companies like Hass making "office" mills and Mini mills. Like all things machine tool they will hit the used market and be significantly discounted.

Finally, I'm still learning here but apparently there are standard tapers that can fit into an R8 sized spindle. This requires a regrind or maybe even an entirely new spindle. However I see significant advantages to using standardized hardware.

I guess what I'm saying here is that buying tooling for a mill you think you may have in the future is not such a great idea. Instead buy for what you own at the moment. The Tormach system seems to be relatively nice for machines with an R8 taper, so if that rocks your boat go that route for today.

Formula SAE huh? I worked on that very briefly - didn't have much extra time - when I was at Rolla getting my ME...pretty cool stuff.

Anyhow, to give some approximate numbers from my experience.

Mill+shipping ~ $1,200

Electronics - ~700-750 ?? (Don't remember exactly...that's a ballpark) Like Hoss's stuff (Keling 570's direct drive), but I went straight to digital drivers 8056D.

Machined roton ballscrews (CJA masterworks) and ballnuts from roton ~500 shipped.

Aluminum stock for motor mounts - ?? say 50 bucks.

Taps for ballnut mounts. (wtttool) - 100 bucks. I threaded mine on the lathe to save money but if you don't have one....you might be able to borrow one from someone on here.

Electronic "other" (cables, connectors, solder) - ?? 100 on the high end.

So your at around 2600 - 2700. And you still haven't bought one thing yet.




TOOLING!! (minus taps)

Tooling cost are impossible to estimate depending on if you like a certain brand...want only US made, etc. Don't forget a good vise too.

Many use tormach style tools so pretty much any tooling you get if you adapt it to the 3/4 shank Tormach style or buy tormach holders outright if you do move up to their mill later you're all set. I would say that if you are very serious about getting the Tormach later, buy the biggest vise you can that you can use on the 704. I have a nice 4" which is a nice fit for the Grizzly but would be way to small on the Tormach. Several have 5" on the 704. I would think a 6" would be too large.


For the sake of estimating, say you get a few tormach holders and a few endmills and drills and reamers...and the vice. Lets say about 1000. And that's pretty bare bones tooling.

SO..bottom line, starting from scratch to a phase 2 CNC'd G0704 mill would probably run around $3,500. I would say that's about what I put into it to that point. But then there are all the great extra features! Belt Drives and power draw bars and tool changers and axis extensions and motor upgrades and .... and .... and ... $$$$$

I've had a blast converting mine - been learning a lot - money well spent.

Have fun

-Doug

[hoss2006]

Got a basic cost breakdown here Turbogt.
http://www.g0704.com/Shop_Info.html#costs
It's what's needed to CNC a G0704 and be able to make chips.
Can be as little as $2500 with the cost of the mill included.
Your mileage may vary.
Hoss

[mhackney]

TurboGT, I am in the final tuning & adjustment stage on my G0704 Hoss Phase 2 conversion. I do have an X2 mill that I used to make the parts for the motor mounts, etc. I also got ball screws from CJA Masterworks and they are very well made. I went with the high end electronics package. Since I have a lot of tooling, measuring and other items, the cost for me was almost entirely in the conversion.

I use my equipment in my home-based business so in many ways, time is money. I ran the G0704 manually for about 8 months to hog aluminum and brass (and a bit of steel) and had no problem with the motor. The plastic intermediate gear did strip though just a few weeks ago. In retrospect, that was my fault for not reassembling properly after taking it part to see what I was in for with a belt drive conversion.

My recommendation, if this is your first mill AND you are not needing the mill to go into production quickly (i.e. you are doing this to support an interest in CNC or other hobby), is to do the conversion in bite size stages starting with the Hoss Phase 1 conversion with the stock screws. This allows you to learn about each subsystem individually without having to tackle it all at once. With the phase 1, the mechanical elements are very straight forward and can be made on a manual machine (i.e. the G0704 itself) or frankly, even a hacksaw and drill press or hand drill. This lets you focus on building the electronics and learning how to get things to run.

Once that is done, the mill is more than capable of making parts for most hobbyists and even for the Phase 2 conversion, belt drive upgrade, treadmill motor upgrade, power draw bar, etc. You'll be up and running quickly, making parts and learning in stages. You may discover that you don't need ball screws until you've done all the other upgrades. I also wouldn't stress over the stock motor. I don't think anyone has had a problem with machines shipped this year (I don't recall reading anything anyway, but I am going senile). "Use what you got and invest in the other parts of the system that you don't got" is my recommendation. If/when the motor does conk out, it can be quickly replaced or upgraded at that time. Meanwhile, you've been making chips and watching ebay for cheap motors!

This was the approach I took when I built my X2 a few years ago. I used the stock screws and was able to CNC the mill in a few days focusing on the electronics. I used this machine with just the X & Y axis CNC'd to make a lot of parts for my reel kits before I wanted to 1) improve speed 2) improve precision 3) and not have to crank the Z by hand! When I did that conversion, I already had the electronics ready to go so I didn't need to spend time or money on that. I also already knew how to tram, tune the steppers, etc.

Also consider, with the Phase 1 conversion you are not wasting money. The electronics will be 100% usable on the Phase 2. Many of the motor mounts you made can be used or modified for the Phase 2. Even if you had to machine all of the aluminum parts from fresh stock, the stock is not that expensive, I recall spending about $35 from Online metals. Otherwise, all of the software, tooling, measuring and other stuff is 100% usable on the Phase 2 machine. You probably save yourself about 40+ hours in getting a working CNC'd mill with the Phase 1. And once you start making parts, it gets you motivated to take the next step.

The primary difference in cost in both money and time/complexity between a Phase 1 and Phase 2 conversion is the ball screws. So why not defer that while you learn about everything else, invest in tooling and determine what you really need?

cheers,
Michael

[jeremy0203]

here is my approximate cost for my conversion.

Mill- $1073 shipped (cost has since gone up though)
Electronics- approx $525
ballscrews- approx $225
motor and ball screw mounts- approx $450
couplers and anything else misc-approx $100

so that is 2373. and that was pretty much turn key as i didnt make a single part in order to do the conversion. i went with the base electronics and dont really see myself needing to upgrade unless i just feel like throwing some more money around. a lot could have been saved by manually making mounts but who the hell wants to manually use the machine =D. the computer i already had as i got it for my cnc converted lathe, i paid $75 for it and got it with an lcd monitor. defintely not something i would use for any other use but it works fine for running mach3, check craigslist as there are always cheap decent computers on there.

[amyers]

here is my approximate cost for my conversion.

Mill- $1073 shipped (cost has since gone up though)
Electronics- approx $525
ballscrews- approx $225
motor and ball screw mounts- approx $450
couplers and anything else misc-approx $100

so that is 2373. and that was pretty much turn key as i didnt make a single part in order to do the conversion. i went with the base electronics and dont really see myself needing to upgrade unless i just feel like throwing some more money around. a lot could have been saved by manually making mounts but who the hell wants to manually use the machine =D. the computer i already had as i got it for my cnc converted lathe, i paid $75 for it and got it with an lcd monitor. defintely not something i would use for any other use but it works fine for running mach3, check craigslist as there are always cheap decent computers on there.

Better redo your math, the mill is about 1200 shipped now, the motor mounts are over 450 shipped now not including ballscrew mounts and couplers are about 90. what about the cost of an enclosure, motor cables, e-stop, etc. i figure you would realistically spend $2775 now. plus the cost of your pc.

[jeremy0203]

Better redo your math, the mill is about 1200 shipped now, the motor mounts are over 450 shipped now not including ballscrew mounts and couplers are about 90. what about the cost of an enclosure, motor cables, e-stop, etc. i figure you would realistically spend $2775 now. plus the cost of your pc.

well thats why i said my costs =D. yes i know prices have gone up for the mill and i was the first buyer of the motor mounts and those have gone up as well. enclosure and wiring are included in my electronics and the misc, you can get shielded 4 wire cable on ebay very cheap and i got a PC case for like $15 on ebay as well. couplers were like $75- the majority of what made my misc price at $100