Looking for 1st milling machine

[morgandc]

I am just starting to look for my first milling machine, while searching the forums and internet I have gone back and forth on plans, sizes, costs...

Goal
The machine will need to cut steel
The quill Z needs to be greater than 4"
Variable Speed.
I would prefer to have a machine that is not sourced in China, but that may not be realistic.
Square column or Knee Mill design.

Wanted Options either installed or down the road
3 axis DRO
Power Feed for X,Y,Z
enough space to use a 4th axis rotary table

Usage
Um... hobby mill, I don't know if I will ever CNC it, however if I do, I will want to be able to do some limited manual work still, otherwise I will just have a friend do the CNC work. So, the requirement to have room to work and use a rotary table is probably the largest requirement. I liked the idea of a mill that could be put in a basement and wasn't as big as a knee mill, but I have the space in my shop currently for a knee mill. I currently have Alibre Expert for design work. The usage will be light, but I hope several hours a week on average. Likely robotics, steam engines, model cars/planes, gun actions, etc. Nothing large planned, but there will always be something that won't fit on whatever size you get.

Thoughts and other wanderings

PM45
I was planning on getting a PM45 with variable speed head, DRO, power feed, and powered X axis, which totals about $5k plus a stand. Then I some electronics problems with my China originated Lathe (14x40 fixed now, under warranty), but it took awhile to find the problem, and then get the parts. Also, I would just like the next step up in quality.

IH version of he 45
So now I like the IH version of the 45, I can get larger movements, higher end DRO, and CNC kit down the road if I want. I am concerned about their supply issues and that they are reportedly too busy to return calls and email. But I have talked to them on the phone. Chinese sourced.

Build
I have considered building a small "router" based solution as I have access to knowledge and equipment, but I figure it will end up costing more in the end and may not be as rigid.

Used Knee Mill
They are out there, I haven't found one yet that looks like it is new or cheap enough to be worth the risk.

New Knee Mill
Taiwan made might be a good, particularly the Jet JTM-4vs-1. The problem is I end up with just a Knee mill with VS, but none of the rest of the goodies and it cost 50% more for the privilege.

Conclusion
And so I go round and round trying to decide the best course of action as I read and gather data, luckily for me, I don't have the money sitting and burning a hole right now, so it will likely be at least a few months before I have to decide. Any input would be appreciated.

[morgandc]

I should confess to drooling on the Tormach CNC mills too, but they are more money than I wanted to spend by the time you include a stand, they don't allow manual operation very well, and they are based on a Chinese mill, but with their reputation I could live with that.

[kregan]

I just went through this but not with my first machine, my second. I went with the Machine Tool Warehouse MD001. They are in stock and Pat the owner is responsive.

My mill is on the way and I am still waiting for a shipping quote from IH.

[Mad Welder]

.............I have gone back and forth on plans, sizes, costs...

Goal
The machine will need to cut steel
The quill Z needs to be greater than 4"
Variable Speed.
I would prefer to have a machine that is not sourced in China, but that may not be realistic.
Square column or Knee Mill design.

Wanted Options either installed or down the road
3 axis DRO
Power Feed for X,Y,Z
enough space to use a 4th axis rotary table
Usage
Um... hobby mill, I don't know if I will ever CNC it, however if I do, I will want to be able to do some limited manual work still, otherwise I will just have a friend do the CNC work. So, the requirement to have room to work and use a rotary table is probably the largest requirement.................I currently have Alibre Expert for design work..........Thoughts and other wanderings..............PM45 I was planning on getting a PM45 with variable speed head, DRO, power feed, and powered X axis, which totals about $5k plus a stand. IH version..............I am concerned about their supply issues and that they are reportedly too busy to return calls and email. But I have talked to them on the phone. Chinese sourced............particularly the Jet JTM-4vs-1. The problem is I end up with just a Knee mill with VS, but none of the rest of the goodies and it cost 50% more for the privilege.
Conclusion
And so I go round and round trying to decide the best course of action as I read and gather data, luckily for me, I don't have the money sitting and burning a hole right now, so it will likely be at least a few months before I have to decide. Any input would be appreciated.

Well hi there morgandc looks like you've done your research...and lot of milling machines apparently come from China and whether you think this is a good thing or bad thing that's up to you and there’s a good few links to thread builds of Chinese made and USA built from fellow members under Benchtop Machines link here Benchtop Machines - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net!

and here’s a few responses to some of your queries that you raised……..you can drop down to an X2 and the Z axis will still raise above 4” have a look at Hoss’s thread Hoss's G0704

Variable speed.........a lot of machines offer that option….Square Mill Z axis,,,PM, G0704, BF20/30 etc.. either of these three will give sufficient Z axis height to allow for a 4th rotary axis on the X axis…

Alibre is a good parametric 3D solid modelling software but as you get more advanced with your creations you may seek a 3D surfacing software option…

[kregan]

Here are the threads I posted recently asking a few of the same questions:
Opinions on the PM45 M Mill or ???

And:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bencht...rmach_not.html

Here is a spread sheet I made:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...E9rLUVjWGhTT3c

[TarHeelTom]

Used Knee Mill
They are out there, I haven't found one yet that looks like it is new or cheap enough to be worth the risk.

I started many years ago with a Unimat. Very small, very limited, but I was only making small parts, never had any problems with it.

Later bought a Sherline mill, and later a used Sherline lathe.

Next I bought a used Bridgeport. Now stuff that used to take me forever on the Sherline is done in minutes on the Bridgeport.

And the Bridgeport was cheaper than the Sherline, at least initially.

There are lots of good (and probably not so good) Bridgeports and clones out there, but it takes lots of looking to find them, and be ready to act immediately when you do find one. Several times I left to go look at a knee mill only to have the seller call me and tell me to turn around, it'd been sold.

I wanted manual control as well as CNC. The Sherline gives me both. I've never made a manual cut since adding the CNC.

But one interesting point that I never imagined. I'm able to makes lots of things very quickly on the CNC mills that just aren't possible or at least feasible) on the manual mill. I'm making lots of intricate parts which from 2000 to 5000 lines of Gcode.

If you've got the space, find a good used cnc Bridgeport or clone. You'll never look back.

Tom

[morgandc]

Thanks for the input so far, I will continue to look at options So far I have only see on used CNC knee mill that I wanted, but $8500 was pretty steep when I looked in my piggy bank for now.

It appears that Rong Fu has some 45 size machines made in Tawain. This might be a nice middle of the road option.

Rong Fu Industrial Co.,Ltd.
Rong Fu Boring & Milling Machines Dovetail Column w/Geared Head << Metal Working Machinery << Online Catalog << Penn Tool Co.
This is a Rong Fu 45

[awetmore]

The 6x26 class knee mills (like the Grizzly G3102) meet you requirements and have the advantages of a real knee while taking up similar space to many smaller mills. I have one in my basement and think it is about the largest mill that I could have gotten down there.

I've had my G3102 for about 3 or 4 years and it's been a great mill. I upgraded to variable speed by retrofitting a VFD and 3 phase motor (for about $200 using used components).

[awetmore]

I wanted manual control as well as CNC. The Sherline gives me both. I've never made a manual cut since adding the CNC.

I also have CNC (Taig) and a manual mill (Grizzly G3102).

I do find that I use the manual mill at least as often as the CNC one. The manual mill is great for quick one off operations where I use machine feedback to figure out the right feeds and speeds. With a DRO it is as fast to drill 4 or 5 holes into something at precise locations using the manual mill as the CNC.

The CNC is great for making intricate cut shapes and really replaces my needs for a rotary table.

Getting into both would be expensive. I'd start with a manual mill and then go CNC because I think that will give you a greater appreciation of how the machine is used.

[morgandc]

I seem to get a little hung up on the quill stroke, are there any problems with moving the knee up and down to make up for the short quill stroke on the G3102? Did you install your own speed sensor to be able to see the RPM that you control with the external VFD?

How is the quality on the G3102? I have knocked some powder coating off my Chinese lathe, and there is rust underneath. So the metal was not prepped properly before powder coating, and I also had a VFD go out as well... I wish Grizzly made it easier than a phone call to figure out which of their mills were made where.

I imagine that some places (perhaps Grizzly), have their own quality control people in place in China and perhaps are able dictate better specs and procedure than smaller places in the US.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

"I wish Grizzly made it easier than a phone call to figure out which of their mills were made where." - There's no need to as virtually everything they sell is made in China. But if you believe you can tell ANYTHING of value from WHERE a machine is made, you don't understand how manufacturing works these days. You would be amazed to learn how many "name-brand" products, of ALL kinds, are now made in China. Do you believe all your Sony products are still made in Japan? Are BMW and Mercedes cars all still made in Germany? Do you really think the Optimum machines are manufactuired in Germany? If so, I have some bad news for you. If you want quality, you WILL have to pay for it. Don't expect to buy a top-end machine for a Harbor-Freight price, and don't waste your time worrying about where you think the machine was built - it has no relation whatsoever to quality.

Regards,
Ray L.

[morgandc]

Probably true, however someplace like grizzly has a large range of tools, from low end to what appears to be nicer cnc eqipment that happens to be made in Taiwan. So far I haven't found a company that tells me that they do/don't prep the metal properly before powder coating, and yes this could be a problem in US made equipment too. That is why I asked about the quality of the G3102 and not where it was made. Mail order sucks, I guess I need to get in the car and drive to a Grizzly warehouse. I have liked my Grizzly bandsaw.