Build Thread- Building a big brother for my X2

[mhackney]

Now that I'm coming up on a year of making parts for my fly reel and fly reel kit making business, I "need" a larger more capable mill. I've read every post on X3s, "BF20" types of machines, etc. It really seems that the BF20 class is what I need - good X and Y travels, large table, BEEFY (Hoss' videos on milling steel are great!), compact and good looking. I'll keep my X2 set up for some small parts I make often and use the new mill for bigger and better things!

So, first up, where to get the machine. I called Grizzly - estimated January 2011 delivery. I have a call in to Matt at Precision Mathews to check their availability. Most likely, it will be a several month wait for the mill.

Meanwhile, I've decided to follow Hoss' route and ordered his conversion prints. This way I can get started with ordering electronics and parts and start fabricating the motor mounts, etc. I hope to use my X2 for everything except ball screws. I have some leads on getting Rotons machined, so that should work out.

I'll use this thread to document my trials and tribulations and hopefully add some value to others.

To get started, here is some good reference material. I am not going to repeat all of the great work Hoss has done, so I'll just defer to his excellent info:

www.G0704.com - Hoss' "All things G0704 plus other BF20 type machines!" A must read for anyone going down this path.

Hoss' G0704 thread here on the zone

My plan is to go a step up on this mill. I also want to fabricate the parts myself as much as possible now that I have a fundamental understanding of the mechanicals and a small mill to help make the parts. I do plan to convert to belt drive and use Roton ball screws. I'd love to get backlash down to about .002 or less on the X and Y. I don't really need this precision but it would be nice to have for future projects.

So, I've ordered the Hoss Conversion Prints and intend to order the machine from one of the above today once I hear back from Matt. Once I have the prints and ordered the machine, its off to Keling for electronics.

Stay tuned...

cheers,
Michael

[mhackney]

Here's a question...

I heard a comment in one of Hoss' videos about the possible tippiness of the stand when shuttling his Z column around on the table. I am considering putting this machine on a mobile base so I can move it around a bit. I have one of these on my Delta Unisaw (another heavy tool) and it is great. But Unisaws don't tip! Maybe the thing to do is get a wider mobile base and position the mill in the center with angled bracket bolting the mill base to the mobile base? This would provide a more solid platform. The type of base I am thinking of has pads on each corner and a set of castors that engage with a lever. So when the castors are disengaged, the stand sits on 4 pads and not wheels. Grizzly sells these.

Anyone have experience with these?

cheers,
Michael

[mhackney]

Well, Matt from PM called back to say that they are not expecting machines for 90 days. They have switched factories to one with higher capacities that they have worked with in the past. Once the first production comes out of this new factory, future availability should be good. Doesn't help me now though!

That gives me time to make the mounts and get ready. I just ordered the Grizzly G0704 which hopefully will be closer to January to deliver.

Cheers,
Michael

[mhackney]

Wow, got the download from Hoss for the Phase 1 and Phase 2 conversion! It might take a month to sift through all the great info and photos!

And the journey begins...

[photomankc]

Congrats man, I think you are really going to like the capability of the Bf-20 type machines. I think you could make outriggers for the steel base and make it more stable. I punched holes in the front 'foot' for some hockey-puck feet and that made it a lot more stable for me but I want to to outriggers and casters later on.

Having the X2 for backup will probably be handy but it might be wise to look at some of the common failures out there and get a spare up front, especially if you start designing to the larger envelope of the g0704. The speed controller seems to be a weak link across the various models.

Very interested to see how your belt conversion process goes. Mine is on hold till I finish the CNC conversion but would be cool to compare notes later on.

Had you given any thought to the Tormach machines? Doing this for profit it might be pretty nice to have a well proven machine for it, but space and cost might be restrictive there. Sounds like you would be largely tooled up for it. Not sure how much you make on the reels and what the payback period would be on it though.

[mhackney]

I have read about some of the common failures and considering options on that. I did look at Tormach. I could justify the cost and probably the turn-key factor (but where's the fun in that!). The space is an issue, otherwise I would pick up a good J Head Bridgeport (there is one 2 miles from me for sale in great condition).

I am in the "building" phase of my business now, most of my profits are re-invested in tooling and machines. Each new piece of equipment or tool allows me to ramp up revenues pretty significantly by being able to increase volumes. Right now, Reel Kits and the raw Materials Packages with a copy of my book are the big sellers. I have not promoted the reels themselves yet, but that will change early next year as the next phase of my business. I think the profit margins are very good but I don't have anything to compare too! I'd be interested in exchanging info with other home based machining business via email or PM - I doubt I compete with anyone here!

It's all a lot of fun and very interesting but it is a side business now. I hope to grow it as my full time job by the time my kids are out of college in a few years.

The one thing about waiting for the machine is it gives me a chance to get all of the other gear in order!

cheers,
Michael

[hoss2006]

I was going to suggest giving Lathemaster a call about their LM25L.
Lathemaster LM25L Milling Machine
They were in stock last week but now they aren't. Most likely a long wait there now too.
Big Dog Metal works sells what seems to be an MT3 BF30 for a darn good price.
Big Dog Metal Master - Benchtop Mills - Big Dog Metal Works
In stock???
Hoss

[mhackney]

I'm still waiting - sort of patiently! My reel kit and reel making business has really taken a big leap in the last 2 months and I am quickly running out of umph with my X2 and C2 mill and lathe.

I called Grizzly yesterday for an update, they are still saying end of January. I also bit the bullet and ordered a 10x22 lathe - G0602 - which is, of course, also on backorder. There are 35 people on the list ahead of me (I assume from the PA facility where mine would come from) and end of Jan early Feb for it. I hope I can hold out until then!

With my "luck" both machines will arrive on the same day and I'll be unable to make a decision on which to set up first!

I started making the mounts using Hoss' great plans. Now that I might have a 10x22 lathe, I can take a shot at turning the ball screws too. Hopefully the lathe comes in first! No wait, the mill. No, the lathe...

cheers,
Michael

[photomankc]

Grizzly's backorder estimates are not worth listening to. It think it's just their way of avoiding saying "It comes when it comes". I don't think they have the inventory tracking system to accurately estimate it.

You can also look at Quality Machine Tools, they make the PM25-MV/PM20-MV mills which are quite similar. The service is good but it appears that the service department is Matt, and Matt is not always easy to get a hold of. I Know they mentioned that they were expecting a container with PM25's in January.

[mhackney]

I know what you mean about Grizzly's estimates. But I am sure they are painfully aware that they are losing revenue. 35+ orders (and it is most like much larger than that) is a lot of cash.

I called Matt and he told me maybe by end of Jan but probably longer. I will continue to check in and if he gets one in, I'll go that route. I just didn't want to have me credit card # on 2 machines and get screwed when they both shipped the same day!

It is interesting that there is that much interest in this type of machining equipment! It is a good thing. For the past 30+ years our society has been a "buy or hire someone" and not a "make it myself". I am experiencing that in my reel kit business. And it does not seem to be driven by price - I think people are genuinely interested in using their hands to create things again.

regards,
Michael

[rcazwillis]

Doesn't China have a Chinese New Year? Seems like I remember somewhere I heard they take off most of December and part of January. Maybe that is a myth.

[photomankc]

Originally Posted by mhackney It is interesting that there is that much interest in this type of machining equipment! It is a good thing. For the past 30+ years our society has been a "buy or hire someone" and not a "make it myself". I am experiencing that in my reel kit business. And it does not seem to be driven by price - I think people are genuinely interested in using their hands to create things again. regards, Michael

Funny you say that. I was saying when I first got hooked on this and electronics that I thought it was for the best for me. There may come a day and time with the way things are headed when being a person who can make something is not just neat but a real advantage. Maybe I just want to justify the purchase of thousands of dollars of tools instead of filling my savings account but at present, I would rather have hard commodities and property that can serve a useful purpose than just a horde of green paper in a building somewhere that seems to be getting less useful by the month.

I don't see prices falling for goods in the future and I don't see the dollar buying more.