Newbie orders Sieg X2 from HF

[Randolph]

Hi Folks,
I have found a wealth of experienced advice here and it has encouraged me to go ahead and upgrade my workshop.

I have been trying to hack together a prototype of a new video camera mounting system using drill press, bandsaw and router table.
Dangerous and unsatisfactory.
I had no idea a $500 milling machine existed until I found this forum and I have been greatly impressed with what people on this forum have done with them.

I joined Harbor Freight's internet sales mailing list and got a 20% discount coupon so the Item 44991 Milling Machine cost me $499 including tax and a 2 year full replacement warranty. I was surprised to find out it only came with a 30 day warranty. The $79 price for the warranty was probably unnecessary since I haven't read about anyone complaining about their mill suddenly quitting on them.
I have to wait 2 weeks for delivery.

I will be getting the belt drive conversion soon and converting to CNC as I can afford the parts.
I have been looking at the kits from CNCfusion, the plans and possibly the conversion kit from Steele Company, and the information from Daniel Kemp on Hossmachine Forum.
Has anyone on here successfully completed a conversion using any of these systems and do you have any comments or suggestions for me?

I have really been enjoying all of the loads of information on Daniel's website. He makes me feel like I could convert one of these machines tomorrow if I had the parts.
So. I know you all wish me luck and I welcome comments.
Thanks,
Randolph

[knudsen]

Welcome to notlurkingdom. I came out of the closet recently

Good little mill. R8 is a big plus. I got mine about 4 or 5 years ago. You'll like it. Takes a little experiance (ie damaged cutters) to learn the limitations, but once you get the feel for it, you're good to go. Get good tooling, especially cutters, especially if you mill steel. Collets, parallels etc., OK for import quality. If you get an expensive keyless drill chuck or something like that you want to use elsewhere, get it on a straight 5/8 or 3/4" arbor, mount in a collet, and you can use it on future machines.

[Randolph]

Welcome to notlurkingdom. I came out of the closet recently

Good little mill. R8 is a big plus. I got mine about 4 or 5 years ago. You'll like it. Takes a little experiance (ie damaged cutters) to learn the limitations, but once you get the feel for it, you're good to go. Get good tooling, especially cutters, especially if you mill steel. Collets, parallels etc., OK for import quality. If you get an expensive keyless drill chuck or something like that you want to use elsewhere, get it on a straight 5/8 or 3/4" arbor, mount in a collet, and you can use it on future machines.

Thanks Knudsen,
I am at first only going to be machining aluminum and plastic so I will go with a set of import cutters until I learn to use them. No point breaking expensive ones while learning. HF has a set of parallels for $29.99. They are only 1/8" thick, but I can deal with that at the price. I saw a set of collets at LMS for a good price too.
Thanks for the tip on the drill chuck. I know better than to buy a cheap one but I hadn't thought about not getting a taper, but a straight arbor.
So much to buy. :-)

[photomankc]

Actually a good little mill if your needs are not too demanding. I'd avoid getting much tooling from HF. They do not have a reputation for quality in that dept. I think the 1yr replacement is a good idea. Recently I found my table was not flat by a rather substantial amount. I'm planning to return it and get a new one. I'm actually putting that up for sale since I upgraded to a bigger mill anyway. It's actually a fun little machine and it doesn't take up a lot of room and in aluminum it's surprisingly capable. It struggles with steel though. I have found it hard to kill a cutter in AL manually but I toasted one with a quickness in steel! I'd keep a separate set for steel.

[knudsen]

1/8" parallels are fine. I wish I had a good 3" set. The 6" sticks out from the vise and sometimes gets in the way. I picked and choosed and bought some stuff from LMS and other stuff elsewhere, but this might be a good deal if you need the vise: http://littlemachineshop.com/product...3489&category= I would be more inclined to endorse it if the vise were screwless. If you are considering the set, I would call and ask if they can sub in a screwless vise of similar value or requote with a screwless vise of your choice. IMHO a screw type vise like in the set will need to be a high dollar US made (or other like Germany, Swiss) to be very accurate. That's not based on experience, just my understanding of vises, so I could be wrong. Assuming the vise is good, the only thing in that set that is junk is the edge finder. Call Chris at LMS, he'll tell you if something is junk and what is better to buy (from him).

On the end mills, I would go with LMS if you want a good cheap set. The HF ones are butter. I started with HF and they go dull with one pass over steel. I still have the HF's, reserved for soft metals. The LMS ones I bought later might not hold up like expensive American ones, but they work in steel. I bought the smaller set of 10: http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ry=-1180321415 Actually, I started with the LMS mini set when I did my initial order: http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ry=-1180321415 and they have been fine all along. I just bought the HF set because I broke my good US 3/8" and hardened steel ate by 1/2" US. Those were my only two "large" mills.

If you want to pick and choose, here are some links, and IMHO Phase II is the best of Chinese import stuff, an in-between in quality and price:

http://www.phase2plus.com/default.asp I don't know if you can order from phase II direct, but you can google pahse II and the part number and find it or go to:

http://getmachinetools.com/index.html (I have not ordered here myself yet)

http://www.cdcotools.com/ (really cheap, but people swear by it)

http://www.grizzly.com/

http://www.tools4cheap.net/

http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/ (the walmart of tooling)

[Crevice Reamer]

Hi Randolph. Welcome to the Zone!

I would not be inclined to substitute a screwless vise for that nice Kurt clone. That's a good starter set, but you don't HAVE to buy everything at once.

It's a good idea to start minimally and add what you need as you go. Then, after some experience, you will KNOW what to buy.

http://crevicereamer.com/Page_6.html

CR.

[Randolph]

Hi Randolph. Welcome to the Zone!

I would not be inclined to substitute a screwless vise for that nice Kurt clone. That's a good starter set, but you don't HAVE to buy everything at once.

It's a good idea to start minimally and add what you need as you go. Then, after some experience, you will KNOW what to buy.

http://crevicereamer.com/Page_6.html

CR.

I just want to keep saying thank you.
Everyone here is making me feel so welcome on this forum by pitching in and giving me good advice.
I think this is the way life is supposed to work; helping each other.

I realize that different ones of you will have different opinions about what the best / most cost effective gear may be and I welcome all of your opinions. I tend to buy the best my pocket will allow and so I sometimes tend to overbuy things I don't need or will never use.
I already see that the tooling will cost way more than the milling machine.

I see photos / videos of people using clamps on the t-slots and others using clamps on a tooling plate and others using a vise. I suppose it depends on the part you are milling and I will eventually have to get all of these accessories.
With your helpful advice, perhaps I can have the basics handy by the time my milling machine arrives.

[Randolph]

Hi Randolph. Welcome to the Zone!

I would not be inclined to substitute a screwless vise for that nice Kurt clone. That's a good starter set, but you don't HAVE to buy everything at once.

It's a good idea to start minimally and add what you need as you go. Then, after some experience, you will KNOW what to buy.

http://crevicereamer.com/Page_6.html

CR.

Hey! Thanks for the link. I was wondering how to take it apart and clean it.

[Crevice Reamer]

Hey! Thanks for the link. I was wondering how to take it apart and clean it.

YW! You might be interested in this one for CNC info also:

http://crevicereamer.com/Page_2.html

CR.

[Randolph]

YW! You might be interested in this one for CNC info also:

http://crevicereamer.com/Page_2.html

CR.

Thanks again.
Actually I have been going through all of your pages. :-)

[knudsen]

Nice detail photo's and instructions CR! I should do the way smoothing one day.

On buying a starter kit, I guarantee there is nothing in the kit that won't be used, unless you are setting for a single operation. The exception is the cheap edge finder, still can use it... as a center punch. Get a good one for $20 or cheap LED one, even HF. HF one works well, but like the old manual ones, it leaves you off edge by .050 (I think it is), so you cave to dial back to the real edge. Forget to do that and you miss the target. Good LED edge finders don't have a built in error. The $20 HF works by conduction, so it has to hit something that has an electrical path back to and through the collet.

You can save some money by substituting these for end mills: http://ww2.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=66213 and/or these http://ww2.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44924 which is what I usually use on the mill, or just start with a small bit and work up. The 1/8" Double-End stubbies should be tested in scrap first, as I found a bent one in the pack I got. That would ruin my day if I tried to center drill the last hole with a bent bit.

[hoss2006]

I think you may have seen this but just to make sure.

Welcome Aboard,
Hope you will find some of the following useful.
The first job you need to tackle is to READ, a lot. Be patient.
There is so much to learn and it's going to take some time to absorb it all.
It takes years, literally, to become a good machinist. Don't get frustrated
if something seems difficult, it'll come to you eventually. Hobby CNC requires
you to become familiar with machining, designing, electrical, programming and
computer skills to name a few. Oh, and get ready to spend a lot of money too.
You don't have to spend it all upfront to get started, you'll have years to add
to your shop. You can though, make your money back and then some if you make
something with your mill that customers want.

New to Machining in General?

Don't know what chip load or climb milling are? You'll need to start with the basics.
Take a class at your local VoTech or Community College if you can, the experience will be invaluable. Nothing like learning by doing.
If classes aren't possible, start by watching all ten MIT Machine Shop videos. They will give you a great overview of many of the machines
used in a typical shop and how to safely use them.
http://techtv.mit.edu/genres/24-how-...machine-shop-1
Little Machine Shop has a great selection of books and videos to help as well.
Basic Machining Reference Handbook
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...gory=993665105
Machine Shop Basics
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...gory=993665105
Machine Shop Essentials: Questions & Answers
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/pro...gory=993665105
You can also rent DVD's from Smartflix.com that cover milling, turning CNC and other subjects.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/115/Metalworking

New to CNC?

CNC is cool but it's not magic. YOU have to know how to machine a part before you can tell the software how to do it.
Refer to Bob Warfields CNC Dictionary to get a leg up before attempting to jump into CNC.
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCDictionary.htm
Learn what G-Code is and what each code does. CAM software (Computer Aided Manufacturing) will make life easier but
you still must learn the codes so that you can edit or write your programs.
The CNC Programming Handbook, Third Edition by Peter Smid is a great comprehensive guide.
"http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Handbook-Third-Peter-Smid/dp/0831133473/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235881817&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: CNC Programming Handbook, Third Edition (9780831133474): Peter Smid: Books
CNCInformation.com has an e-course you can sign up for free to learn the basics of CNC.
http://www.cncinformation.com/SP1.htm
As mentioned, CAM software is very beneficial, almost mandatory for some parts.
CAD (Computer Aided Drafting) is used to design your part and usually outputs a full scale dxf file that most CAM programs can use to
generate a toolpath (g-code) to machine your part. Some software is packaged as CAD/CAM and can do it all at once.
There are MANY to choose from that range from FREE to tens of thousands of dollars.
Hobbyist don't need the capabilities of the high end programs. I have links to several programs that I've tried that are either free or
very reasonable at less than $1000, some very fine programs are only a few hundred.
I'd suggest you download and try them all, most are free to Try before you Buy.
It's important to pick a program that makes sense to YOU and not force yourself into using something that others find appealing.
Install the program and run though a couple of the tutorials that are either included with the software or available for download from their site.
http://www.hossmachine.info/links.html
Once you find something you like, you can get help, tips or samples from forums on Yahoo.com or CNCZone.com
CAD software forum
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/forumd...prune=-1&f=404
CAM software forum
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/forumd...ysprune=-1&f=5

Looking For Your First Machine?

Don't rush out and buy a machine that's "On Sale", chances are you'll regret it later.
You need to have a handle on what type and size of parts that you're likely to make to make
an "informed" decision. The hobby will quickly turn sour if your machine cant "cut it".
Pay heed to those that have "been there, done that". There's nothing useful to be gained by
repeating someone else's mistakes. If you have an initial budget limit to jump into the hobby,
spend as much as you can on the machine. You will spend the rest of your life buying tooling,
so don't scrimp on the machine to get extra tools to start. A vise, clamping kit, a pair of calipers
and a small selection of cutting tools is all you need to start. Some companies include these with the machine anyway.
When the time comes to add more tooling, don't scrimp here either. A well made tool will last for years and years.
Measuring equipment is one place where you should spend more of your cash.
Your parts will only be as good as the tools you use to measure them.
High quality manufacturers such as Starrett, Brown and Sharpe or Mitutoyo won't let you down.
http://www.starrett.com/
http://www.brownandsharpe.com/
http://www.mitutoyo.com/
I told you this hobby is not cheap.
Reading thorough reviews will also give a great incite into the machine of interest.
Minimill reviews
http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Main/mini-mill.htm
Minilathe reviews
http://www.mini-lathe.com/Default.htm

You Have the Machine, Now What?

You have your new machine and want to start making chips. Take some pics now,
it will never look this good again. Chances are your machine arrived by truck in a crate.
The Minimill review will give you some good pointers for unpacking, cleanup and accessories.
http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/...er_mill_p1.htm
Also be sure to completely read thru your user manual which are often available for download as pdf
from the sellers website.
Once you have the machine in it's home, it's almost time to get it dirty.
If you are using it manually, you can start in on the gib adjustment procedure.
This is covered in most manuals but you can read about it in the LMS Minimill Users Guide page 14.
http://littlemachineshop.com/info/Mi...UsersGuide.pdf
Next you'll want to adjust the tramming/column alignment to insure the cutter is true to the table.
Tramming the X2 with Spindle/Column Alignment
http://www.hossmachine.info/Shop_Info.html#tramming
Finally check that the X and Y axis are square.
Clamp a known square part such as a 123 block on the table aligning the left side with the Y axis
using an indicator. Snug down the 123 block and move the indicator to the front of the block.'
Run the X axis along the face and if you have no movement of the needle, all is well.
Any deflection from one end to the other indicates that the axis' are not square. If you are lucky,
you may find some flash on the end of one of the dovetails that can be removed with a fine file or sanding.
A severe out of square condition may require having the dovetails remachined or replacing
the saddle.
Out of square can be compensated for in the Mach 3 software under Formulas, but it's not ideal for long term.

If you're using the machine under CNC, perform the same procedures as above.
Then you'll want to setup the motor tuning.
http://www.hossmachine.info/cnc_conversion.html#Testing
Next is to check for backlash in the system.
Verifying Mach 3 Backlash Comp
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buXHZ_McbOY"]YouTube- Verifying Mach 3 Backlash Comp
Once that is taken care of, run the Axis Calibration for Mach 3 to make sure that Mach 3
is physically moving each axis the exact distance it is supposed to be moving.
Improved Mach 3 Axis Calibration
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkO5tc-jSxw"]YouTube- Improved Mach 3 Axis Calibration

You are now ready to put the machine though it's paces. This testing is important to get the
knowledge of what your machine is capable of for when it comes time to tell the CAM software
what cutters, RPM's, feedrates, DOC's (Depths of Cut) etc. to use. get some stock similar to what
you plan on using commonly and practice, practice, practice.
Try starting with a 3/8 endmill and make many passes using different rpms, feedrates and DOC's.
I made several videos doing just this, starting slow and building up speed and DOC each pass
until the mill said NO MORE. This gave me the maximum rates at which it can run, but I generally
run at less than half those rates to be comfortable.
Feedrate tests
http://www.hossmachine.info/Videos4.html#videos23&24
Speed and Feed charts and Calculators are valuable tools to get into the ballpark for setting
the machining rates. Most are created with professional equipment in mind, so hobby machines
need to use the lighter slower side of the scale.
http://www.hossmachine.info/Shop_Inf...0feed%20charts

http://www.hossmachine.info/Shop_Inf...20speed%20feed
A good starting point is a chip load of .001 when using the calculator.
Most machines can handle a bit more, I hit .0075 in some of the tests. Too light a chip load
will cause too much chatter (squealing noise) and a poor finish. Using a cutting fluid such as
oil, silicon or water based will improve the machinability and surface finish.
Mach 3 contains many wizards that you can use to practice cutting parts also that will generate
g-code programs. This can help you see what each line of code is doing to the part.
It also gives you an incite into CAM software because you input the machining data in a similar way
and the program outputs your toolpath g-code.
Newfangled Solutions wizards aren't free but you can see on their website what some typically look like.
http://www.newfangledsolutions.com/addons.php
To get more out of Mach 3 or to just learn the basics, they have many tutorial videos to help you along.
http://www.machsupport.com/videos/
Told there was a lot to learn, but be patient, it'll only SEEM like a lifetime.
It may take weeks or months, but things will start clicking. Before you know it,
you'll be designing your own part, creating the toolpath, loading the program, setting up the machine and pressing START. Magic.
Hoss