Purchasing my first mill
Im very new to machining and there are questions google just can't seem to answer. Im going this Saturday to look at a Clausing 8520. They guy selling didn't know anything about it and couldn't seem to get me the photos I needed to figure it out myself. I have learned that this machine has either 2MT or B&S taper. So my question is for light machining are 2MT end mills sufficient or would I be better off with a 2MT ER collet chuck and set of ER25 or so collets. Ill mostly be cutting pockets and tinkering around. From what I read there is no 2MT to R8 adapters which (from what I've read) seems like the most cost efficient route as far as tooling goes. But for now I don't see myself needing more than a few end mills until I get further in. Anyway all input is welcome and thanks for having me on the site, I hope to learn alot and share my creations.
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Re: Purchasing my first mill
That is a nice little mill. If the spindle is MT2, finding some endmill holders should not be too difficult. There is nothing wrong with a ER25 system either. B&S endmill holders might also be available, Ebay may be your friend here. If you're lucky, the mill may come with some tooling.
Re: Purchasing my first mill
Thanks for the feedback, going to look at it in the morning. Guy is asking 400, not sure if it comes with any tooling. Anything I should look for as far as wear and tear or condition that might not make it worth my time?
Which would be more versital, 2MT or ER? From reading I feel like 2MT is old tech and ER has more options with the actual size range for each collet.
Re: Purchasing my first mill
As far as condition, look for excessive wear or heavy scarring on the ways. Excessive backlash, maybe > 0.100 or so. Does the table move smoothly throughout the entire travel in both axis. If it's under power, listen for excessive noise in head, like grinding or really noisy bearings. A lot of this is subjective, and really requires experience of being around machines to make reasonable determinations on overall condition. If the general appearance of the machine is good, then the machine is proabaly overall good. If it generally looks beat to hell, then it would require looking a bit deeper to determine condition. Covered in oil & grease is not normally a bad thing. Look under the dirt to see what's there. I get real nervous when I see a rattle can ''rebuild''.
The real advantage of the ER system is that the collets have a gripping range of about 1mm, which means you can use them to hold drill bits of any size. The MT2 endmill holders are limited to standard sizes, typically 1/8 to 1/2 by 16ths. However endmill shank sizes are in increments of 16ths also. 3/16, 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 being the most common in the sizes you would be using on that mill. The advantage of an endmill holder is that the endmill is secured with a set screw that fits into the flat on the endmill. Prevents pullout and spinning in the holder. ER collets or any collet for that matter relies on friction to hold the cutter, normally this works just fine except in the case of really heavy cutting.
Re: Purchasing my first mill
ER collets aren't just restricted to drill bits - no reason they can't be used with endmills or in fact anything with a round shank! ER collets are available in both metric and imperial sizes so chose whichever takes your fancy although with the clamping range available metric collets will hold imperial shanks and vice versa! The advantage you quote is also its disadvantage as any endmill holder has a 'bored for clearance' hole for the cutter and the set screw will push the cutter to the far side of that hole giving a margin of run-out whilst the ER collet clamps on 12 points which are clamped via tapers so should run totally concentric. Even using an MT collet end mill holder will run more concentric than a set screwed holder......+ you have to buy endmills with a flat or grind a flat into a plain shank - PITA ! For me the ER's win every time and you aren't disturbing the draw bar every time you up or down size the endmill / drill or even workpiece if using the mill as a lathe!Originally Posted by Jim Dawson
Re: Purchasing my first mill
Only if you assume your spindle,your ER holder, and your collets all have zero runout, which is virtually NEVER true... In the real world, I very much doubt there is any statistically valid general correlation between runout and the type of holder being used, It is going to depend VERY much on the specific spindle, holder and collet being used with a specific tool. And even a given spindle, holder, and collet will almost certainly give varied results with repeated re-mounting of any given collet and tool.
Regards,
Ray L.
Re: Purchasing my first mill
I wasn't suggesting that ER collets can only be used with drill bits, I was saying that in addition to endmills, they can be used to hold drill bits where endmill holders are limited in that regard.
Re: Purchasing my first mill
Soooo..... guess who's the owner of a Clausing 8520!! Brought it home yesterday along with some extras thrown in. Guy had an old belt driven drill press from an old Ford Motor plant, 30's or 40's has a real neato burrito vibe to it, even has power feed.
Back on subject, the Clausing looked good to me. I expected rough paint and dings here and there. It came with a box of tooling, some collets, spare spindle (which worries me that the one installed is bad) and other assorted parts, even the original owners manual and spec sheet with all the measured run-outs (guess thats the right term) from the factory where it was made.
It has a chuck installed and seems stuck, I loosened the draw bar and gave it a tap, no go. Tap tap tap no go. Ima soak it and see this afternoon. The motor is locked up, not sure if it works or not. Ive been researching replacements, AC vs DC, suggestions welcome.
My first action I think is to give it a good cleaning and detailed inspection. I'm not sure if I should dissemble it to clean or what. Its got a fair amount of surface rust on the table, not sure what the proper procedure for cleaning this is. I read some stuff about blocking it with a stone....? If I take it apart I would assume all the adjustments would be lost, the 4 page original manual has no mention of adjustment or disassembly.
Like I said Im new to machining and don't know much, I have no problem taking things apart and what not. I need a "I just bought my first used mill 101 for dummies."
Anyway, I appreciate all the insight on the 2mt vs er, I think since it came with some 2mt collets I will use those until my skills advance and I expand my needs. I look forward to another hobby that I spend all my time and money on
Re: Purchasing my first mill
Sounds like you have a keeper there. Congratulations! For surface rust, fine Scotchbrite pads and some light oil or kerosene works fine. The motor being locked up seems a bit strange, bearings stuck? Mouse nest?
Take pictures during dissassembly, that way you will have a record of how to put it back togetherYou'll be able to adjust it back into spec when you put it back together.
If you get a chance, some pictures here would be a good thing
Re: Purchasing my first mill
Some photos. I did some cleaning on the table and removed the vice. There was a lot more damage hiding under all that oil and grime, much less under the vice but you can see from the photos. I decided to disassemble the major parts of the machine and clean it thoroughly. I got the taper to release, turns out the chuck had a 1/2" shank and I found the missing 1/2" collet. So far I have removed the table, the bearing in the handle is surly bad, I can feel indentations in it when turning it in my hand. Its a 201KDD, found a few online, any particular replacement brand I should stick to? I prefer timken for all my automotive and farm needs.
Question. Can I face the table once I have it cleaned, adjusted and put back together or is that something I should send it out to have done? There are some pretty bad knicks, looks like someone went to town on it with a hammer at one point in time.
Picked it up
At its new home, here you can see the awesome drill press we scored also
Table after cleaning and removing vice
Re: Purchasing my first mill
Really cool drill press!
As far as the table goes, I would just stone off the high spots, and leave the rest of it. I can kinda understand the 'stupid' marks (drill holes and other tool marks), but what I don't understand is why the hell would someone use a mill table for an anvil?If you really want to surface it, you will have to send it out to be ground. It's not possible to surface it on the machine, not enough travel. Even with grinding it won't be smooth, it's not possible to go deep enough to get any but the really shallow marks. You just don't want to take off that much material.
Timken bearings (which I think are made by Fafner now) would be fine, nothing special about that particular one. The only critical bearings on that machine are the spindle bearings. But there Timken would be fine also.
Re: Purchasing my first mill
How to repair these things ? Welding the damage table is good pratise ?I can kinda understand the 'stupid' marks (drill holes and other tool marks)
Re: Purchasing my first mill
Welding would NOT be a good idea. It is possible to do more damage to the table by welding. The best thing to do is to just leave the marks as they are and stone off the high spots.
Re: Purchasing my first mill
So this stone, google is having a hard time. All I keep finding are knife sharpening stones. There were some on MSC but 180 grit seems rough in the machine world.
Question: If I soak my parts in kerosene will it take the paint off? I just wanna clean, adjust and get to makin stuff, not strip the paint. I might consider "restoring" this machine later in life.
Also is this thread ok for me to continue to ask general questions as I get deeper into getting my machine in working order or do I need to move else where? I know some forums are picky about content being in the right place.
Re: Purchasing my first mill
For stones try McMaster https://www.mcmaster.com/#sharpening-stones/=17jlfn7 You might try your local hardware store or farm supply also.
You may need a 180 to start with. Use kerosene with the stones. I have a covered baking pan filled with kerosene I keep my stones in. No real difference in knife sharpening stones and anything else, grit is grit. Just the grit size and material matters. For die work you can get stones in many different shapes, grits and materials. Norton Abrasive is the main manufacturer in the U.S.A.
Normally kerosene won't damage the paint.
This thread seems as good as any to me, but then I'm not a moderator here
Re: Purchasing my first mill
So I had a day off this week and it was raining so I decided to tear down the mill and give her a good cleanin. Ill post some pics of areas that concern me, Ive been using the google but its saturated with too many things Im not looking for, like treadmills... There are some wear areas on the ways, I have no clue if this is an issue. For clarity I dont plan to have super duper mars rover accuracy with this thing, Im aware of that going in. However if I should and its affordable Im not opposed to having minor things fixed. I dont plan to "restore" this machine ie no paint... for now...
Horrible insects we have here in Texas, mud dobbers... probably why my motor wont turn.
Here are some more.
Interesting bits that were hiding in all the chips under the base.
Area of wear under the Y slide. Can I just run my stone over it and call it good?
Y axis of the knee, here you can see the figure 8 pattern I did with the stone and kerosene, You can see the sides are high because they shined up, I was cautious to continue. I went until it felt smooth and wasn't catching on the nicks.
Z axis nut, looks worn to me, not sure where to source a replacement. If I only had a lathe..... Clausing Lathe Flame Hardend Bed Ways Model 5914 Some Tooling | eBay
And last a photo of the arm, cleaned up real well. Not sure how to get that stained area shiny, I used 1500 wet paper with wd40 and its still there.
Re: Purchasing my first mill
Now for some questions. Ill try to keep it simple and research based on the answers I get.
1. The Motor. Current condition is unknown, locked up. Marathon 3/4hp, 3 phase 208-220/440 volts. Question: should I even worry about fixing this motor? Or get a new one. Sub question. AC vs DC (tread mill) motor. 1 vs 3 phase, 110 vs 220, using a VFD. Is 1 or 1.5 hp too much? I have access to both 110-220 single phase. I would like the convince of variable speed...
2. Control Circuit. This depends on the motor choice somewhat, I plan on using a main disconnect and fuses, then which ever motor controller piloted by start stop fwd rev buttons and a switch. (What is a good source for these industrial type switches, cheap and simple). Like this Milling machine motor replacement, tach, and VFD
Sub question. Power tapping, I watched a video where a guy was tapping and when he reached bottom he flipped the rotary switch from forward to reverse. It made my teeth hurt just watching it. Is this common practice? or would an investment in one of those fancy clutched tapping heads be wise?
Rust prevention. I sprayed this stuff on the bear castings and wiped it over the parts after I degreased them. Seems anti-rusty and smells good too.
Electrician Question. My shed where the mill will be living is not yet powered (under construction). Aprox 75 feet from my electrical panel. How do I estimate amp load and wire size. It seems that everyone I talk to and everything I read is conflicting about how to calculate these numbers. So far I plan on a lighting circuit 20amp, 110 outlet circuit 20 amp, RV style AC mounted in the attic, no idea how many amps (Ill do a special thread on that project later) Clausing mill 3 amp based on motor name plate. I plan on a 50 amp plug for a small welder as well. So 100 amps... thats more than some peoples houses...
Re: Purchasing my first mill
On that machine I think a 1 HP, 3 phase would be a good choice. You might take a closer look at the original motor, the only thing that can stop the motor from turning is bearings, or mud dobber nests.
Automation Direct is my prefered vendor of industrial panel switches.2. Control Circuit. This depends on the motor choice somewhat, I plan on using a main disconnect and fuses, then which ever motor controller piloted by start stop fwd rev buttons and a switch. (What is a good source for these industrial type switches, cheap and simple). Like this Milling machine motor replacement, tach, and VFD
Power tapping is very common, just as you describe. I only use a tapping head when I have a lot of holes to do.Sub question. Power tapping, I watched a video where a guy was tapping and when he reached bottom he flipped the rotary switch from forward to reverse. It made my teeth hurt just watching it. Is this common practice? or would an investment in one of those fancy clutched tapping heads be wise?
For 100 amps you are going to want to use #3 copper or #1 aluminum. Exactly what type of wire you buy will depend on whether you are running overhead or underground. If you are running underground, concider putting it in plastic conduit if local code allows, and follow local code on buried depth. Copper would be my first choice. If you must use aluminum, be sure to also pick up a bottle of Noalox and follow the label directions to treat the connections. Found in the electrical aisle of your favorite hardware store.Electrician Question. My shed where the mill will be living is not yet powered (under construction). Aprox 75 feet from my electrical panel. How do I estimate amp load and wire size. It seems that everyone I talk to and everything I read is conflicting about how to calculate these numbers. So far I plan on a lighting circuit 20amp, 110 outlet circuit 20 amp, RV style AC mounted in the attic, no idea how many amps (Ill do a special thread on that project later) Clausing mill 3 amp based on motor name plate. I plan on a 50 amp plug for a small welder as well. So 100 amps... thats more than some peoples houses...
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