Reply with QuoteShopmaster has a new dedicated CNC lathe that comes with some nice tooling at 5K.
https://www.shopmasterusa.com/
Sounds like it would do what you want.
Looking for Lathe Advice
Hi all, I'm hoping to find a lathe that will fit my prototyping needs. So far I have been just doing small production runs and dealing with any issues after the fact, but I'm really looking to get into prototyping my own parts before I go with larger runs at a professional shop.
What I really need is a manual lathe that will be able to thread fine threads (24 tpi or so) on a 3.25" diameter 304 stainless part OD...length of the finished part is only 1/2" or so, basically just discs. I've contacted several manufacturers, however it's a pretty hard proposition comparing them or knowing where to start. Size is one thing, rigidity is another, and it seems that recommendations come in all over the place from a $1k Chinese lathe up to a $10k CNC ready with flooded cooling as the "minimum required". Accuracy isn't super critical, the parts really just need to thread together and not bind up, so threading is the tightest accuracy constraint, but from what I've seen there's a lot of tolerances that threads work at.
I would like to convert the lathe to CNC in the future and add a VFD and flooded cooling setup, so it would be nice if the base lathe is a popular one to do that with and was a good base. But ultimately in the short term what matters most is that I can turn the parts necessary. Speed is not a factor since this won't be a production machine, so many multiple passes is fine. Just that I have been told 304 needs to have a minimum feed rate, speed and cut depth so as not to work-harden.
On the low end I'm looking at Grizzly lathes in the $1k-1500 range. High end has been recommended to me here:
CNC 1440 Manual Lathe Machine for Sale | CNC Masters
I know many people would just say "get the best and biggest you can afford," but for me, right now being in a rental place for a year or longer, it will be something I need to move. So really I'm looking for the smallest machine possible as I know what the largest part I want is. Having said that, if the $10k lathe really is the minimum possible at 2100 lbs, it just means I won't be able to start prototyping for another year to year and a half. And I had hoped to also use a smaller lathe on many other non-related projects, so even if I get a CNC production lathe at some point in the future, I don't think this one would ever become useless.
Also, since this is my first lathe, support is a consideration, and if I have to pay slightly more to get a company that will take care of me, I'll definitely choose that as long as it's not double the cost for the same machine or so. Any suggestions are very much appreciated.
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Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Shopmaster has a new dedicated CNC lathe that comes with some nice tooling at 5K.
https://www.shopmasterusa.com/
Sounds like it would do what you want.
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Thanks very much, that looks like a very nice machine and package for the price. I know combo mill/lathes are looked down upon, and I had considered getting a mill to do what I want instead, or getting a separate mill later as some very minor dimensions need to be done on a mill.Originally Posted by Norvil l
The main issue looks like it will require a 220v 20a circuit. In my rental house I think it's not possible.I guess this may be my limiting factor more than space as I have a 2 car garage that I could not put cars inside.
When I build my house hopefully within a year I'll be keeping this in mind.
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Where are you? Try Craigslist in your area. Getting a machine that was designed as a CNC is a better proposition. Especially if you need to work now. There is plenty of used equipment on the market.
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A lazy man does it twice.
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Raleigh NC area. Unfortunately though I saw one of the CNC master lathes for $6500 on craigslist, I don't have the space or ability to run it here. Another problem is that I wouldn't know what shape a lathe is in or if it's complete. So unless the owner gives a warranty (haha for Craigslist) or manufacturer could somehow certify it...I'm not sure it would be an option to me. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to save money. But on a used lathe I wouldn't know what I'm getting into.
The shopmaster does look perfect for me if I can somehow get a 220v line in my garage. The breaker panel is right there, so it would be trivial to have done, just a matter of talking with the landlords, though I imagine that would get into another discussion on why it's needed.
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Alternatively I could go with a CNC mill instead. Since the height of most of my pieces isn't large, I believe this is possible as well. Only a tube and rod (about 12" lengths) are minimally processed to clean up ends, but I think this could be done in a different way.
Threading I know would take a LOT longer on a mill, but I'm not sure again exactly what level I would need to work with about 1/2" thick stainless, or how to fix rods if I didn't use plate stock.
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
I am kind of in the same situation. I do prototyping and product development on the side. When I relocated, I sold my big lathe because I didn't have a place to move it. I really miss it. I kept my old 9" South Bend bench lathe (I do love it). It is a very accurate machine but lacks the power to do everything I need. Look at what you want to accomplish with the machine now and in the future. For a specific material and tool combination you will have an optimum cutting speed, with that, the depth of cut tells you the amount of power you will need. For me, it is painfully slow to work with any alloyed steel but i can fly through aluminum with good surface finish. Do you need stainless for your prototype, can you evaluate your design in Aluminum? Don't skimp on accuracy. You want to make as accurate a part as possible (with good surface finish) to evaluate your design, not to mention showing potential investors/customers how serious you are. Threading should always be taken seriously because you can feel the parts go together and can really affect function. Because of budget I have mostly bought used machines. Get a good dial indicator and look up some videos on how to check spindle run-out. You can use the indicator to check the backlash in the screws also. Have the guy selling it make a demo part on it. My first lathe was probably 50 years old but the seller went through all of the checks and made a part for me to measure. Used tools are a lot like a used cars, if the parts you touch are worn out but it has new paint, they might be trying to hide something. An indicator never lies. The 2hp 220v 3ph mill in my garage works great on a $120.00 variable frequency drive I bought "on the net". Find a machine that you can comfortably afford, and speaks to you. There is always a way to make it all work. A lot of heart and sweat goes into developing a working design. Don't let a junk or under-powered machine add frustration to that equation. I am holding off investing in another CNC machine until I have a guaranteed number of units to produce. Then I can move back into a real shop space. The CNC equipment I have stuffed in my garage is totally underutilized. And as always your mileage may vary.
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Threading on the mill wouldn't be that bad. Thread milling would be the method used for something that size. As with anything, the accuracy of the threads will only be as good as the accuracy of the machine, so again you're faced with what size, power machine you could fit in your budget and power constraints. If you just need for prototyping, you can get great results on a small machine, it just means alot more carefully thought out cam programming and trial and error. You also want to maximize the machine with the last backlash possible. You can machine around rigidity issues but backlash is generally what makes your issues come to the surface. In other words, light finishing passes on an accurate machine will give good results even if it's a small machine.
I think regardless of what you end up getting, 220v is gonna be a pretty common requirement. Anything single phase single leg is going to be a bit anemic power wise.
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Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Thanks again for all the thoughts. Again, used is just not in the cards for me. If I was an experienced person then as mentioned it should be trivial to make sure the lathe is in good condition.
I originally did prototype in aluminum, but it turned out to be a bad idea at the time. What you can get in stainless and aluminum stock are very different, at the time I was using tubing & pipe for a couple of the pieces not turning everything out of bar stock, so aluminum was perfect, but I quickly found out on my first production run that stainless was something else entirely. Anyway, now it may not matter too much, but I would hate to make the same mistake twice. Again, even if the part takes a long time as lcvette mentions, it doesn't really matter, this isn't a production setup, but I do need the parts to thread together and work relatively.
I've been looking more into the Shopmaster, and unfortunately there just isn't much for experience or reviews out there with the new machines. What is there are some pretty bad experiences with the company. I wouldn't be unwilling to still go that route, but it's making me explore other options, and to be honest unless it comes to me perfect or they can send someone to make it perfect, I feel I'd just be better off with a Grizzly manual lathe.
I have no problems forgetting about CNC until I purchase a bigger production lathe in the future.
As to exact model numbers, does anyone have a suggestion of what would work for me in a technical way? Threading OD on 3.25" 304 stainless stock?
I know Chinese lathes I will likely have to do some work to them to adjust, and I have no tooling whatsoever, but again unless a bigger lathe is pretty much plug-and-play, I feel I wouldn't be getting a good value compared to say the Grizzly G0602. The question is, will the G0602 do the threading I need?
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
My father in law used a Jet Lathe, I believe it was a GHB1340 to support his vertical machining center. I have seen a lot of Jet industrial equipment over the last 20 years. I think jet imports a smaller bench top model but I don't know what it is called. I looked at the Shopmaster and was impressed. I wish it did have more history.
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
The G0602 is a good little lathe, cheap and comes nicely outfitted with accessories, it is a bit on the small side though if you're planning on mainly larger diameter turning in stainless steel. It work hardens so lighter cuts aren't a good idea and heavier cuts in stainless on that small of a machine may leave you with buyer's remorse. I would look at a standard 6" Chuck starting point sized lathe with a little more mass for that kind of turning if you want it accurate and good surface finish. Think as great as the grizzly g0602 is it may be at the edge of its useful capacity.
I remember Bolton tool had some great pricing on lathe the next step up that were only a few hundred more. Also maybe precision Matthews, they boost ground and hardened ways on their machines which may be a huge advantage to having a good fit between siding parts which minimizes fitment issues on other cheaper machines.
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Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Got to agree with lcvette, the G0602 is at the very light end of what you want and may have buyers remorse if turning stainless. Stainless is a real pain to machine, needs good torque and moderate to heavy cuts. Problem is this can lead to chatter in a smaller lathe. 304 Stainless machineability is rated at 0.4 versus 1.9 for 6061 aluminum or another way of saying 304 stainless is roughly 5 times harder to machine. I'd check out the G4003 from grizzly - or similar 12" or 13" lathes.
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
If your on a tight budget, this lathe is hard to beat:
Gear Head Bench Top Metal Lathe CQ9332 - Bolton Tools
It's a good bit beefier than the G0602, it is piecemeal when it comes to accessories but helps on initial purchase price of you don't need everything and can always add it in later as needed. For such short parts the steady rest wouldn't be needed nor the follow rest, face plate etc. It also has the capability to run on 110 or 220v which helps your situation. Unfortunately it your in a hurry it looks like they are out of stock.
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Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
I thought I replied from my iPad earlier, but guess it didn't go through.
Thanks! This looks about perfect as you note. I'll contact them on availability, I also sent an email to Precision Matthews to see if they could suggest something.
Glad to know the G0602 won't cut it, the G4003 though looks a little heavy for me at over 1000 lbs. I wonder if the G9972Z would be comparable to the Bolton tools?
Overall, great suggestions guys, I'm feeling like I have more of a handle on what to research now. My only last conundrum seems to be...does it make more sense to put the same money into a CNC mill and just forget about a manual lathe? 95% of what I need can be done on a lathe, but it does mean I would need a light mill to drill a single hole at an angle, and mill a very small feature in a semi-circle shape. It gets me wondering again if I should just accept long machining time, and go for a mill. I'm honestly not sure how some parts would work, and if I would have to use plate stock only, or if round-stock can be used on a mill? I also have a couple of o-ring grooves to cut in a 12" rod, I would guess these would be irritating to do on a mill unless the rod could somehow go through the table.
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Ideally, shoot for both as a mill and lathe compliment each other very well and its frustrating to have one without the other at times.
Working with a 12" long piece of stock on a mill vertically would be difficult to say the least, you would be better served using a rotary table perhaps to machine the oring groove with the stock horizontal. On a small machine making round parts I would say it's difficult to beat the lathe. You would need a small mill with really good rigidity for machining stainless with success and repeatabilty, directory if it's 304. I'm not saying it can't be done, but your budget would need to grow a bit and you'd need some good power and machine mass to handle the heavy cuts. The lathe will be a better candidate as the closer moving components (smaller work cube) will offer more rigidity and less chance of deflection over a similar sized mill. It sounds to me like you have allot of constraints and lofty requirements. It may be smarter to use a local machine shop for rapid prototyping until you have the space available to support the power requirements of a machine better suited for your work. I don't know how many different parts you need to have made for prototype, but if it's just one or two, you would be miles ahead getting it done somewhere and possibly having an agreement that once the Prototype checks out you would award a production run to the machinist. This gives incentive in setting up fixtures and setup time that may make it more worthwhile to the machinist.
If you plan on pursuing a prototype business, that a different story altogether. Small machines can make great parts, but there is a learning curve and air of work involved. A CNC conversion on average takes months to complete and requires a machine to begin with unless you buy a machine with a conversion kit available. The tweaking of the machine and other upgrades can begin to speak out of control fast. If you ask most who have done it, your answers usually are " is rewarding, but I wish I had a bigger more capable machine". This seems to be a common realization after the fact. You may be better served looking at the tormach machines and lathes if you want small and ready to run in a week or two of delivery. It's time to ask yourself how serious you are about your business. Do you truly want a business or to play with machines as a hobby. Sometimes the hobby morphs into a business opportunity, and sometimes a business venture is really a rationalization to get into a hobby..Lol.
If business is the priority, you need to determine if you are willing to invest in your business to have the capabilities your wanting and the timeline for which that makes the most sense. Only you can honestly answer that question. The question is will you honestly answer it..Lol. Many of us have wants that far outweigh our needs and can lead us to make decisions that aren't actually in our best interest.
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Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Thanks again, you confirmed my suspicion that I really will end up needing both to really do things right. I do want machines capable of the above, but it's looking like more and more the wise decision is just to wait out the year until we build our house and set up the biggest I can afford at the time there. I'm not making insane profit on the parts, and there is only 4 parts that likely won't change too much (2 of which are very small amount of cutting with one using tubing). I've had almost all rocky productions in the past (4 runs), but hoping this latest one will go well. It's hard to really be top priority at a shop when you only want 50-100 sets, and I get it. The current place has done one of my parts in the past and came through without a hitch, so hoping a full run will go well.
On the other hand, maybe I could just forget about prototyping in stainless and get a 7x14 to do prototyping, it would be able to thread a 3.5" work piece correct? I could also use the 7x14 for many small jobs that just haven't been practical without a lathe. Milling features and drilling holes could maybe be done by hand or a drill press if I consider aluminum.
Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
It's funny you mentioned the 7x14... I just dusted off my 7x10 to use in a pinch and I instantly remembered why I put it away... It's a toy and nothing more. Mine has been gone through and made as good as you can make it and it just lacks so many features a slightly larger lathe could offer.
I would steer you back into the G0602 before you wasted a dime on a mini lathe. The diameter you are talking about would be a nightmare on the little guy.
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Re: Looking for Lathe Advice
Thanks, will steer clear. For now the machine shop does seem like my ideal solution until I have my own place. Appreciate everyone's help in helping me determine that.
