Which would you recommend for cnc mill?

[Gamble]

Looking to dive into a cnc mill this year. Never done any type of milling before but it's something I really want to get into.
Looking for something that isn't huge as I have a small workspace. I narrowed it down to 4 options and if i missed any please advise
I do plan on taking a fusion360 class this year also. My only experience currently is my cnc plasma which I have had for 3 years and did own a shapeoko3 for awhile
So which would you do and why?

Sherline cnc mill.
$1500-2k
Pros: inexpensive to get my feet wet.
cons: limited for size, doc, feed rate etc, would outgrow pretty quick

Grizzly and conversion:
$3-4K
pros: larger and more capable.
cons: if there is an issue, I'm not sure where I would start.
Saw a few threads where people were changing over to ball screws. and larger motors etc. Where does it end? Is this machine not capable of doing good work with just a conversion?

LittleMachineShop Sieg 3502
Milling Machine CNC with Enclosure 3502 - LittleMachineShop.com
$4-5k
Pros: it's enclosed..?
Cons: I have a feeling there will be a lot of hidden expenses. Demo of mach3 only. Not sure what else I need.

Tormach 440
$8-9k
pros: all in one solution (i think). seems more than capable to cut any type of metal for hobby/light production use
cons: price. scared to get in over my head at that cost. would the wife kill me if i spent that much instead of paying off her car lol


Thank you for your input

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[CS900]

are you limited to these selections? I would also trow in the ring a Taig CNC for a sherline alternative, and a PM45 CNC for a replacement tormach

If you have the money and space, get the biggest one you can afford. You'll want the extra travel at some point.

[instructor37]

I would take a look at the Shopmaster- we have several and have had good performance from them.
https://www.shopmasterusa.com/

[Gamble]

are you limited to these selections? I would also trow in the ring a Taig CNC for a sherline alternative, and a PM45 CNC for a replacement tormach

If you have the money and space, get the biggest one you can afford. You'll want the extra travel at some point.

Those are the only ones I found. I'm only limited to know I know is out there

I would take a look at the Shopmaster- we have several and have had good performance from them.
https://www.shopmasterusa.com/

I'll take a look

I have a 3 car garage but only use 1/3 of it for my stuff. I have a small 2x2 cnc plasma, a few welders, big ass tool boxes, compressor, drill press etc. Going to add a small downdraft table. I'd like a huge one but have no room for it, so I have to keep it reasonable. The tormach is as large as I'd like to go.

what's the advantage of a ball screw?

[CS900]

generally speaking, they have less backlash and rolling resistance than a standard lead screw.

[Gamble]

generally speaking, they have less backlash and rolling resistance than a standard lead screw.

Is it worth the $1000 to upgrade?

Ok stupid question. generally how loud are these machines?
My shapoko3 with dewalt dwp611 was LOUD. I'm talking I could close the garage door (detached garage) walk 50 feet to the house and hear it as clear as day

I can do the grizzly setup for about $2800 without any tooling. How much should I factor in for a vice, basic tools and if there is any good tool changer?

[CNCfun&games]

Gamble,

I would suggest a 5th Option.

Sounds like you are taking the same path I did in researching machines!!

I ended up purchasing a second hand BRIDGEPORT 2J which was used it as a learning experience.

Since then I have accumulated a 14" lathe, A Bridgeport Boss CNC, and scratch built 5 different
types of Benchtop CNC Machines, but none can compare to my mighty Bridgeports for versatility!

Caution: this hobby can be addictive!

Best Regards......W. Smith, Mission Viejo, CA

[Gamble]

I agree a bridgeport would be nice but I don't have the space
It's starting out for hobby use but will work it into my business for small production type runs.

[CS900]

Is it worth the $1000 to upgrade?

Ok stupid question. generally how loud are these machines?
My shapoko3 with dewalt dwp611 was LOUD. I'm talking I could close the garage door (detached garage) walk 50 feet to the house and hear it as clear as day

I can do the grizzly setup for about $2800 without any tooling. How much should I factor in for a vice, basic tools and if there is any good tool changer?

if you're spending $1000 just on ballscrews, you're probably spending more than you need too. Lots of guys on here, including myself, run the rolled ballscrews that are all over ebay. With a double nut set-up i'm holding +/-.001 fairly easily. I think I payed around $400 for mine.

[hanermo]

It never ends and there are no limits. None.

Only auto-toolchanger machines are productive if making stuff for resale, for others (aka jobshop work).

If making your own products, You may be barely profitable without a toolchanger.
The comparison is based on money- not what You make what what others would make.

IE someone with a toolchanger machine, can make parts so cheap, it is better not to make them yourself, in terms of margin/hour.

The Tormachs are the cheapest You can get into auto-toolchanger machines.

I have an auto toolchanger ISO30 spindle, with drawbar.
Spindle is about 1300€, machine components for a VMC about 30k€.

Tiny bridgeports, M-heads with small tables, will fit anywhere and can be had for 500$.
A well done retrofit is about 2-4k$, depending on how You define "well".
But no toolchanger.

A great lathe retrofit is about 8k€ in components including 8 tool toolchanger and industrial electronics, servos, etc.
Thus, the A is "it depends".

[Gamble]

Only reason I am curious about a toolchanger is to keep from having to re zero the Z axis every time I change a tool. Unless I can have a bunch of different collets and program each one so when i change the tool the machine will know how far down to go

[CL_MotoTech]

Only reason I am curious about a toolchanger is to keep from having to re zero the Z axis every time I change a tool. Unless I can have a bunch of different collets and program each one so when i change the tool the machine will know how far down to go

You don't need a tool changer to do that. Repeatable height tool holders are helpful, but you don't even need them. I'm not sure what software you are considering but Mach Std Mill which is a Mach3 plugin will measure tool height after every tool change if you want it to. It does this nearly autonomously via a touch plate or tool height setter. You can measure tool length offset and have it saved into a library, then once you set the work coordinates the tool heights are already known for every tool in the job.

[hanermo]

As the others answers ... having pre-set or calibrated tools is not necessary ..
One good example is the Tormach toolink systme or TTS (or older QWIK-switch, others).

but having a machine able to automatically swap tools is an absolute necessity if you want to make parts, for money, so that the machine does not need to stop while you swap the tools.

Also, for jobshop work, remember that the ancillary aka extra stuff is easily 30k$ used ..
and again an absolute necessity for 90% or more of common jobshop work.
(Steel, mix of parts ie not clockmaker and instruments).

Consider an auto saw.
Absolutely indispensable, so that you can buy a full 6 m (20 ft) bar, and set it up to cut the 100 6 cm slugs from the parts.
Say steel, 50 mm D(iameter) or 2".
10.6 lbs / foot, ==212 lbs / 96 kgs, 0.9 kg each, .

If you buy it in slugs, == 5$ each, or as a bar and slug it, == 3$ each, save 2$ per piece.
Your profit doubled, at == 8$ per piece in lots of 500, finished.
The 100 cuts saved you about 200$ in about 1 hour.
The full bar (or 2 halfs) are cheaper than the slugs, too.

OR iow you are wasting 200$ / hr if You cannot slug it yourself.
Note the bars are heavy 100 kg to 1000 kg or more.

Now you need a stacker (electric pallet / mini forklift) at 4500€ used.
Racking for bars and slugs. Another 3000€ used.

Etc..
24 tools at 250€ each (bottom pricing, all import. 6000 €.

ISO30 toolholder (50€),
tool (say insert face/end mill) 60€,
collet, ER25-20€,
inserts 200€ for box of 10, pullstud 10€).
5-10k tooling.

Metrology. 2k to 20 k.

You probably don´t need heat treat ovens,
tanks and chemicals for black oxide, permits, hazmat handling, yet.

Insurance, yes.
If the stacker battery catches fire, or anyone is injured, or the shop electricals have a problem, and you don´t have at a minimum an llc and some minimal insurance, and bookkeeping, you have a huge problem.

The most important point is this.
You ARE NOT trying to work for yourself.

You are trying to work as good as, and CHEAPER,
than the cheapest best jobshop guy near You, with all that stuff, since he will be happy to do any work You want, very very very cheap and efficient using a 25 kW HAAS machine, or bigger/better.

None of above I mentioned means not to buy a machine- of any type.
Just be realistic about what You do, how, and what You expect to do with it.

Many people have machines like a Bp and make some "beer money" - which is great.
Some people have started with a Tormach, and gone onto bigger ones with money they made with them - which is great as well.

A 10k Tormach (+5 k tools) is much cheaper than racing cars, sailing, horses, or motorbikes - and many people do some of those as well.
Nothing wrong with hobbies.
Imo.

[CL_MotoTech]

I mean I make money with my G0704 (it's paid itself off several times over in a short period of time) sans ATC all of the time, it's not the cornerstone of my business, but it has certainly allowed me to grow my market. Maybe if your sole income is machining parts the ATC is key, but if you aren't needing nonstop machining to maximize your investment then it probably isn't necessary. It takes all of 40 seconds to change a tool anyways, not a big deal. Automated setup or part changing would make me way more money. In my case I looked at the investment of a larger machine and given the returns on my current machine versus the extra expense of an ATC machine it would have been a terrible investment. But it all comes down to the type of machining you are doing, the types of parts you makes, etc. There is no clear cut rule for these things, do your research and choose carefully.

[ChrisAttebery]

First off, you're never going to get rich making parts on a mini mill. With that in mind An ATC would be nice but there are ways around it. Keep in mind I'm talking about prototype or low production type parts.

You need repeatable height toolholders. Get a set of R8 or TTS toolholders. Mach Standard Mill will automatically measure and store the offset for each tool. Now your manual tool changes are in the 30 second range.

Now that you have that taken care of you need to think through your design so that:

A. Maximize the number of parts you can load on the machine. I have some parts where I machine 100 pieces at a time on a sheet. When the sheet is done I cut them into strips of 10 on the band saw and face off the backside.

B. Minimize the number of tool changes. It takes 30 seconds to swap tools, but it might only take 15 seconds longer to use a smaller end mill (5/16" or 3/8" instead of 1/2") that can do all of the cuts needed and keep the machine running. The same goes with through or tapped holes. I tend to use 2-3 tools per part, fewer if possible.


Like CL_MotoTech said, my G0704 has paid for itself many times over. Someday I'd like to buy a small VMC with an ATC, but for the volume I'm running now it'd take forever to get to the break even point.

[Gamble]

I'm not trying to get rich. I mean it would be nice though haha
I work full time as my sole income and my business (yes I have an LLC) pays for new tools and toys and helps me learn. My 2x2 cnc plasma table is 3 years old now and I started it very basic without height control. I've grown into some of the more advanced things for it and it works great. I probably run it 2-5 hours a week since I'm pretty busy with other stuff lately. Mainly looking to learn all about the cnc mill stuff, design and be able for it to work and make me parts while I'm working on the table or under the hood welding something.
Now very stupid question. How loud are these? My cnc router screamed but now with our new house I have bedrooms upstairs. Wasn't sure if an enclosed mill would be an issue with sound or not. I can run my little air compressor and they barely hear it, so if it's not as loud as that I'm good. Kind of why I was leaning towards an enclosed one like the one from little machine shop
My production stuff would be 1-3 parts at at time and maybe a run of 10 or 20 for a batch. That's long down the road. I'd be more than likely doing 1 at a time to get used to things for a long while.

[ChrisAttebery]

A mill should be quieter than your router or compressor. You can barely hear mine in the house when it is running. I have one of the California Air Tools compressors and it is about the same dB level when they are running.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gamble]

Glad to hear!

UGH this is killing me, not sure which way to go!

Any beginner tool kits out there and vise that I can start with? I should be shopping for a small 3d printer to prototype some of my parts before milling

[ChrisAttebery]

Let me qualify my answer from above. If you have a belt drive the machines are pretty quiet. The stock gear drive is pretty noisy.

[Gamble]

Let me qualify my answer from above. If you have a belt drive the machines are pretty quiet. The stock gear drive is pretty noisy.

G0704 is belt driven or gear?