Introduction and a few questions

[CMart]

Hello from Milwaukee WI,

I am normally one to read the forums rather than write, but since this seems like a very friendly community (not what you normally see on other forums) I figured I would reach out for some help on a project I picked up.

A little about myself, I have always been a tinkerer. When I was a kid it was electronics, high school through now is cars, and I recently picked up a home made cnc. I have always love machining and was lucky enough to get introduced to it in a high school metals class. My first job out of college was at a large steel processor that worked with steel mills and end users. It was a great experience and I learned a ton (no pun intended) about metals. I recently switched gears and now work for a risk management firm that helps manufacturers (and other companies) identify and address their risks. I have been very fortunate to work around manufacturers as much as I have.

Anyway, I came across a home build cnc from an estate sale around the Milwaukee area. The son of the gentleman that built it did not know much about it, but it came with a lot of paperwork and I took a gamble. What it did not come with was the computer that ran the machine. I bought it to make some parts for a project car I am working on. 1991 BMW 318is with a 4.4L V8 and 6 speed trans from a 540i. I can get pics of that up if anyone is interested.

I know it is the harbor freight bench mill, but what else should I be looking for? Should I take the computer apart and see the hardware? Does my software depend on that hardware? I am looking to keep it on the cheaper side until I know it runs, but if there is a cost effective software that blows an open source one out of the water I am willing to invest in it. Pictures below.

Thanks in advanced and I am looking forward to joining the community.













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[Wiggles84]

I was wondering when I'd see another member from the Milwaukee area!


Not sure what the software you have pictured has to do with the machine?

As far as control software goes, mach3 (or 4) and Linuxcnc are the two that seem to be used most. Mach3 can be used under demo mode for programs under 500 lines of code. I think Linuxcnc is free but you need to be able to write code to add stuff to it.

If you can take some pics of the inside of the gray box on the back of the machine I'm sure we'll be better able to help you out.


A pic of my work in progress


Andrew

[Fastest1]

Wiggles pretty much covered it. I would suspect the prior owner used the software Wiggles mentions (Mach 3 or Linux/EMC) as this is the most affordable, available and discussed software for hobbyists. Like Wiggles I want to see the inside of the electronics cabinet.

I suggest getting a computer with a parallel port ready.

The snap server software is for network attached storage. The other is an electrical utility software I think.

[CMart]

Thanks for the feedback. I am working on getting a laptop with a parallel port. I will get a picture of what is inside the box and start looking into software - funny the cds were given to me during the sale because the seller thought they were part of it.

- - - Updated - - -

And beautiful machine there Wiggles - I look forward to getting this pig running and work on something of that caliber one day.

[TSJ]

One quick thought about a laptop. If you search on this forum you will find many problems with laptops, they typically run 3.5 volts and a desktop about 5. Some of the controller boards cannot accept the lower voltage. You may be money ahead to get a desktop.

[mmprestine]

Green Bay here.

I use linuxcnc and find it bullet proof. If you have a desktop with a parallel port around that would be the best. It has ball screws and the direct belt drive kit which is nice. Also looks like you got one end mill and a collet.

First things I would do to just clean it all up are:

1. remove all the extra crap on there, like the x,y handles on motors. DRO, fine adjust, and quill type handles on the z.
2. get the control box off the back of the machine it no use there.
3. by the looks of the transformer setup that is likely your DC supply for the steppers.
4. open the control box and take pictures.

Matt

[CMart]

Sorry for the delay. Per usual I have been delayed working on my car.

The first is the picture from the back of the unit. The second is some extra hardware that came with the mill. Any idea what I am working with or where I should start?

Sorry for the large pictures I wanted to show the detail.

[CMart]

After taking a second look this is starting to make sense.

I will need to figure out the software, but what type of laptop or computer would you recommend? Any performance minimums/operating system minimums recommended? Something like this? TxMicro :: This Weeks Specials!! :: Dell OptiPlex GX620 P4 3GHz 1GB 80GB CDRW XP

I also found some basic hand controllers for manual (controlled) xyz movements. Any thoughts on those for basic non precise work?

[Wiggles84]

looking at the guts of the box, I'd say it should be able to run off of mach3. mach3 can be had for free as long as you keep your programs under 500 lines of code.

I think the biggest task will be getting all the pins figured out to setup mach3.

If you do go the mach3 route, a laptop won't be ideal unless you get a board that goes between the laptop and machine that generates the pulses for movement. something like the smooth stepper.

The issue with laptops is most don't have a parallel port and the ones that do are lower voltage and or act strangely because of power management settings.

Andrew

[CMart]

I have never heard of smooth stepper.

What type of machine to people typically run?

Will a small PC like the one I have linked work?

[fusion_crank]

I would think that PC is fine. I have used 2 Dells in the past one was only 950 MHz and it was great for Mach. That price seems high though. I found mine at my local GoodWill store for $15. We have a place called the Grid that is ran by GoodWill. They sell old donated computers and video games, That place is great for cheap good computers. You might have a walk though your local thrift stores. Good luck!

[CMart]

Is the difference in laptops and desktops in the power supply?

The price is a little higher because of the size of the computer. I would ideally like to keep this as compact as possible.

[fusion_crank]

That computer could be a problem. It's hard to tell at this point. They may have designed it a lot like a laptop and used laptop technology to achieve it's small size. The two problems I know about with laptops are the lower voltage of the printer ports, and the software that windows uses for power utilization. In an effort to keep batteries working as long as possible, windows tries to manage resources to minimize power consumption. It switches stuff off as it thinks it can, in the background, so as to not effect the user. The problem is, this has a negative impact on Mach and can cause lost steps. I would suggest looking in the Mach section of the Zone and the Mach Support forums over at Artsoft, and search for similar Dell machines being used. Maybe someone else has tried it already? I think the Mach Support forum will be your best bet for software questions like this. Good luck!

[CMart]

Thanks.

Any insight on a smooth stepper? What about a hand controller that can do manual work?

[mmprestine]

The National Instruments PCI card is for data acquisition. Typically these would be used with software like Mat-Lab or similar. TI may even have their own versions. NO use for this project, I would say that the other cd has the software for this on it. Sell it on ebay.

The first picture is the stepper driver board. This is the unit you have: HobbyCNC PRO Chopper Driver Board Kit | HobbyCNC

You dont want the manual control with the handles on the machine it is crap with ball screws, but what you could do is purchase a MPG and connect it direct to the driver board and then use the machine in the manual sense. Here is such a unit.

Universal CNC 4 Axis MPG Pendant Handwheel Emergency Stop for Siemens L | eBay

Again, I would start by just cleaning everything up. Remove all the wiring from the boards and power supply unit shown in the other pictures. Then start from scratch and rewire it and then decide if you want a PC or MPG control.

[fusion_crank]

I can't comment on the smooth stepper. I have a Shuttle Express and I love it for setup and manual work. I also had the Shuttle Pro and it was great too. I have recently be trying this wireless keyboard and mouse combo. It seems fantastic. And at $14 if it doesn't last I'm not out anything. Amazon.com: iPazzPort Mini 2.4GHz Wireless Remote Control Keyboard with Multi-Touch Touchpad for Android and Google Smart TV/XBMC/Raspberry pi KP-810-21B: Computers & Accessories

[109jb]

If you want to keep it compact, you may want to consider something like The planet cnc usb controller Planet CNC or the smooth stepper. They have the advantage of being able to run off of usb because they offload the realtime motion control to the usb card. That enables using just about any computer, including laptops. The planet cnc board is a breakout board too. I don't really no anything about the smooth stepper other than it is a popular board that works with Mach 3. I don't use Mach 3 so have never looked at it.

You could also use usb by going to an arduino system using GRBL. I am planning to do this in the near future. I can't really "recommend" it since I have not done it yet myself but it looks very attractive for many reasons including the $7 price it will cost me to get it going. It has some drawbacks though. There isn't any handheld controller support, and jogging isn't yet implemented. You can do mdi commands and pseudo jogging by increment (ie: 0.100" 0.010" 0.001"), but holding a button and having the machine jog at a certain federate doesn't work. I have communicated with the main developer and jogging is the next step and is in the works. I am hopeful that it will come soon. I did see something about using a smart phone as a pendant in some way, but haven't explored thus any further. The advantage of GRBL like the smooth stepper and planet cnc type boards is that the real time motion control is offloaded from the pc. In the case of GRBL it is offloaded to an arduino that is only concerned with controlling the machine, whereas a pc has background tasks, operating system, other apps, etc which all use resources and could possibly interrupt the real time control of the machine. I would say this approach would only be applicable if you like to tinker though.

[Fastest1]

Is the difference in laptops and desktops in the power supply?

The price is a little higher because of the size of the computer. I would ideally like to keep this as compact as possible.

The issue is the output of the PP. Most computers are 0-5v but many laptops have a 3.3v output. The variation between the high and low is sometimes not enough to trigger a change of state. It is not always the case. Almost has to be tested.

[CMart]

I guess compact doesn't matter all that much. What ram/processing minimums should I be shooting for. Any preferred operating system?

[109jb]

It depends what control software you are planning on using. There is LinuxCNC which runs on Linux, or Mach3 that runs on windows.

I currently use LinuxCNC and it has been great. However, as mentioned before you have a computer that is running a complete operating system as well as running the motion control software. There are tests you do to check the latency of the computer to determine how fast the system can respond to the realtime motion control software. The setting limit how fast you can run the machine so that the computer can keep up. Linux is a little finicky regarding hardware that it likes, but in general old hardware works really well. I use an old Pentium 4 desktop that a local company was going to throw away. Just needed a HDD. It runs fast enough that 200 IPM on my G0704 conversion is not a problem. There is hardware that other have tested and found to work exceptionally well, but my old PC works well enough for me. I am a bit concerned because of the old hardware. It is an old computer, old HDD, old memory, old everything. That is the main reason I am going to try GRBL. Oh by the way did I mention that the LinuxCNC control software is FREE and comes in an ISO that includes the Linux operating system. The ISO can be burned to a CD and booted from there to try it out.

Mach 3 I don't know much about. I do know that it costs about $150 if you want more than 500 lines of code. I tried the <500 line demo but couldn't get it to work to my satisfaction. LinuxCNC worked better for me. I do have to admit that I only tried it for a short while and went back to LinuxCNC. Mach3 is very customizable and lots of users here on the CNCZone use it. That is a plus if you need help. With Mach3 I believe the faster the computer the better off you are. I have seen quite a few posts talking about random errors while running mach3, but as I said, I don't use it so can't comment other than I have seen many posts about random errors. I also took note that Tormach, who are makers of production CNC machines recently switched from a Mach3 based system to a LinuxCNC based system. You can infer what you like from that.

These are probably the 2 most popular programs for CNC motion control. There are many others but these are the most popular.

As for the GRBL controller, the hardware for that is the Arduino and any computer that has USB to talk to it. There is a G-code front end called "Universal G-code Sender" that is Java based and as such can be used on Windows, Apple, or linux. The G-code sender program just send the G-code commands to the arduino via USB so there isn't much computing power needed.

Good luck.