Newbie Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!


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Thread: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

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    Default Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Hi, all! I have run CNC mills for years (mainly as a button-pusher, but my current employer is training me in programming). I bought a used Sieg X2 mini-mill on EBay quite a few years ago, and then found out it could be converted to CNC. I bought the FigNoggle plans, and have decided to try them out (my boss says I can probably come in on Fridays when there is no regular production work going on so I can use the company's machines to make some of the parts for the conversion).

    This is the driver board I decided to go with, and one of my co-workers is giving me a couple of older PC's to use: 4 Axis Nema23 3 0A Stepper Motor USB Driver Board TB6560 USB CNC DIY Controller | eBay

    I also bought a hand-controller to go with it.

    I am trying to keep costs to a minimum. My ex-wife gets a large portion of my paycheck, unfortunately.

    First, is there an INEXPENSIVE ballscrew and nut that I can use for the Z axis? The FigNoggle plans call for the following specs: .200 lead, 72" long, .625 diameter. and a 1.71" long opposing ball bearing nut. I am not looking for aerospace-grade accuracy, but +/- .005 or better would be nice.

    I also need a way to control the backlash in the X and Y leadscrews. Due to costs, I would prefer to keep the original leadscrews, but they don't have backlash adjustment built in. Is there a way to retrofit for a minimal cost?

    Also, what torque spec should I look for in the stepper motors? I will be machining a variety of materials, from plastics to non-ferrous metals to steel and cast-iron. I also know the higher the torque, the more expensive the motors will be.

    Also, is anybody here familiar with this conversion, and can tell me whether or not the gas-spring I retrofitted to my machine can still be used, or if it will have to be removed?

    I know I can upgrade parts later, but any help and advise I can get in getting this project off the ground would be very much appreciated.

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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    I'm about 80% into an x2 conversion using these plans. To answer your backlash question - I went off on different track and tried this.
    Making Acetal leadscrew nuts the easy way
    So far they have been working very well.

    I'm not using the airspring system, so I can't comment on that although I am planning on using a counter weight system rather than springs.

    You can see some pics of progress here.
    Mill Photos by madluther | Photobucket

    I'm using 350 oz in servomotors on my conversion.

    Regards.

    Steve.



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Seems like those acetal nuts would wear in time - maybe even more-so than the stock brass ones, since acetal is softer than brass. Will you be adding some sort of adjustability to them?



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    If you read the entire linked thread, there is discussion on wear, they last much longer than brass due to the wiping nature of acetal.

    Edit, link to the wear entry Making Acetal leadscrew nuts the easy way - Page 3

    Last edited by rythmnbls; 07-16-2014 at 07:28 AM.


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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Okay, now here's another question: are there any inexpensive all-in-one 4 axis controller boards out there - say, less than $100? By all-in-one, I mean a controller that connects directly between a computer and the stepper motors, with maybe a power supply box on the side, with no additional individual boards between the controller and the motors. The less I have to buy, the less it impacts my budget. Gecko drivers have an excellent reputation, but they are WAY too expensive, for example. I am having trouble with the board I mentioned in my first post, especially with the software licensing, and I am working with the seller on that problem. From the description, it sounds like an all-in-one board, but it's a moot point if I can't get the software to work with it. Yes, I am aware you get wat you pay for, most of the time, but I am looking for a way to get this going and then upgrade later when I have more funding.



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    If you think buying cheap electronics will save you money, you are in for a rude awakening.

    Buy the G540 or an MX3660 and be done with it, forever.

    Otherwise I hope you are good at component diagnosis and replacement.

    A lazy man does it twice.


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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    G540 is, again, WAY too expensive for my budget. The MX3660 is only 3-axis, not 4 axis (I want to add a stepper motor to my rotary table, eventually). Aren't there any TB6560 or similar based boards that would work?



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Did an Ebay search for "4 axis controller mach 3".

    Found this

    Have no clue how good it is! but doesn't seem that hard to find?

    Andrew



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Let me get this straight - you bought one of those TB6560 boards to save money. It didn't work, so you're going to save some more money by buying another one?

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by RKnack View Post
    G540 is, again, WAY too expensive for my budget. The MX3660 is only 3-axis, not 4 axis (I want to add a stepper motor to my rotary table, eventually). Aren't there any TB6560 or similar based boards that would work?
    Honestly, there's no free lunch here. If you don't have the budget for the G540, you don't have the budget for CNC. Seriously. Think of all the other stuff you need, tooling, setup equipment, measuring equipment, etc. The extra couple hundred bucks is not only worth it, but nearly mandatory to get things working. I had an X2 that was converted and the machine was about 1/3 of my overall budget. The other 2/3 was in all the extra stuff I needed to make parts. And I'm just a hobbyist, and I don't have a lot of stuff, and a lot of it came from Shars. It adds up. If that's honestly out of your budget, you're going to have a heard time with this hobby.

    YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/RobertCowanDIY


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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by cowanrg View Post
    Honestly, there's no free lunch here. If you don't have the budget for the G540, you don't have the budget for CNC. Seriously. Think of all the other stuff you need, tooling, setup equipment, measuring equipment, etc. The extra couple hundred bucks is not only worth it, but nearly mandatory to get things working. I had an X2 that was converted and the machine was about 1/3 of my overall budget. The other 2/3 was in all the extra stuff I needed to make parts. And I'm just a hobbyist, and I don't have a lot of stuff, and a lot of it came from Shars. It adds up. If that's honestly out of your budget, you're going to have a heard time with this hobby.
    Except that I already HAVE all those things you mentioned - tooling, setup equipment, measuring equipment, etc. I work in a CNC shop, and have run CNC equipment (mostly mills) in various shops for about 15 years. I thought it would be fun to have my own CNC machine, since I enjoy the work I do. In fact, I have already been given permission to make the various pieces of the motor mounts on the Haas machines in the shop I currently work for. I have had the X2 machine for several years now, and in fact I just installed a set of metal headstock gears to replace the ones I accidentally stripped while testing a new tool (a face mill that uses CNMG inserts - I took too heavy of a cut by mistake), leaving the top intermediate gear nylon as a "safety" (the metal gear set was less expensive than a belt drive and the gear noise doesn't bother me).

    The TB6560 board I have does not work in part because the CNCUSB software that came with it won't accept the license key that was provided, and also a relay on the circuit board had its outer casing broken in transit (I don't know if it works or not - won't know until I can get the software to work). If nothing else, I can try to order another relay based on the numbers on its case. But I have to say I am not particularly happy with EBay seller "prettyworthshop". Are ALL TB6560 boards essentially worthless, then, regardless of the manufacturer/seller?



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by RKnack View Post
    Are ALL TB6560 boards essentially worthless, then, regardless of the manufacturer/seller?
    Basically, yes.. It is a very fragile chip, and has a terrible reputation, regardless of who manufactures the board. They are VERY easy to blow up. It may work for a while, you may even be one of the lucky few who gets it to work long term. But the odds are against you. Problems with TB6560 boards come up quite often on the ArtSoft (Mach3) forum. The "regulars" there won't even respond to such threads any more, due to the many, many problems they've seen. Seems like everyone thinks they'll be different, and won't have problems, but such people are in the minority and most people who go that route spend far more in the long run by having to buy, and build, everything at least twice. It's a false economy.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    OK, fair enough.

    It's not that TB6560 boards are useless, but they're not really well-mated with a G0704. There are better ways to do it. I bought a couple drivers from eBay that look exactly like the Keling drivers, and they were $30 a pop. They worked very well. Maybe go that route? It just seems that the TB6560 isn't a great fit for anything other than really small motors.

    YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/RobertCowanDIY


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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by cowanrg View Post
    OK, fair enough.

    It's not that TB6560 boards are useless, but they're not really well-mated with a G0704. There are better ways to do it. I bought a couple drivers from eBay that look exactly like the Keling drivers, and they were $30 a pop. They worked very well. Maybe go that route? It just seems that the TB6560 isn't a great fit for anything other than really small motors.
    Can you post a link to the drivers you bought? Did they require a breakout board? Supposedly, the board I bought (that I am still trying to get to work) does not require a separate breakout board - hence the "all-in-one" feature I was looking for.

    What would you classify as a "small motor"? I have on order three Wantai 57BYGH633 270oz-in 3A motors. This set of drivers plus a breakout board - http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Axis-CNC-D...-/281279348749 - is being sold by the manufacturer, but I do not know if it will work with my particular motors

    I am also wondering if it is possible to easily add NC spindle control to a Sieg X2, or if it requires a specific driver/controller/breakout board combo. I'd like to be able to do thread milling, but that's hard to do without precise control over the spindle speed. Only other option I can think of is to put an M00 into the program (necessary for tool-change, anyway), set the spindle speed with a digital tachometer, and write the program so that it mills the threads, then moves the tool to the center of the part so that the spindle can be turned off and raised out of the part (possibly an M00 after the part moves to the center, then manually turn off the spindle, then restart the program to retract the tool and put the table and head at home for tool changing).



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by RKnack View Post
    I'd like to be able to do thread milling, but that's hard to do without precise control over the spindle speed.
    Not sure where you picked that up, but it's absolutely not true. Thread-milling is no more sensitive to spindle speed than any other milling operation. Rigid tapping is, but you're never going to do that on an X2 in any case.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    rknack if you want a great resource for x2 info and things you can do with it check out hoss' website. Hossmachine Homepage



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by RKnack View Post
    Can you post a link to the drivers you bought? Did they require a breakout board? Supposedly, the board I bought (that I am still trying to get to work) does not require a separate breakout board - hence the "all-in-one" feature I was looking for.

    What would you classify as a "small motor"? I have on order three Wantai 57BYGH633 270oz-in 3A motors. This set of drivers plus a breakout board - 4 Axis CNC Digital Step Motor Driver DQ542MA 50V 4 2A 128 Micro | eBay - is being sold by the manufacturer, but I do not know if it will work with my particular motors

    I am also wondering if it is possible to easily add NC spindle control to a Sieg X2, or if it requires a specific driver/controller/breakout board combo. I'd like to be able to do thread milling, but that's hard to do without precise control over the spindle speed. Only other option I can think of is to put an M00 into the program (necessary for tool-change, anyway), set the spindle speed with a digital tachometer, and write the program so that it mills the threads, then moves the tool to the center of the part so that the spindle can be turned off and raised out of the part (possibly an M00 after the part moves to the center, then manually turn off the spindle, then restart the program to retract the tool and put the table and head at home for tool changing).
    the eBay link you posted was similar to the drivers I had. They are pretty decent for the money. Honestly, I'd save the money on the 4th axis and go for a better driver, but hey that's me (and everyone else on here apparently).

    It seems like you are trying to build a very full-featured machine for not a lot of money. Maybe you should just stick with a more basic machine? You have a LOT of people on this forum that have built machines and know a lot about how everything adds up. I've built 3. I tried my first on a budget and it was a worthless machine. Then I re-bought everything and tried again. I ended up spending a lot more than if I had just started with the right stuff. Read through this forum, almost EVERY thread about building a machine on the cheap has similar stories.

    YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/RobertCowanDIY


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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Well, I FINALLY was able to test my board out with the three motors, using my old Dell Optiplex GX240 for the "brain". Had the board set for 1/8 microstepping, fast decay, 3 amps on all three axes that I will be using right away (X/Y/Z; A will wait until the rest of the machine is functional). Seemed to work just fine - motors ran smoothly and without a lot of noise. I had them hooked up half-coil and they had enough torque I couldn't stop them by hand. They ran slightly warm, but nowhere near uncomfortably so. The heat-sink on the board got warm, though not hot, but I will probably find a 12-volt cooling fan (CPU fan out of my computer junk, more than likely) to add more cooling to it just to be safe. Sunwin, the maker (or at least the distributor) of my board sent me not one, but THREE replacements for the broken relay, and I had replaced it as soon as I got the replacement part. Upon testing, the relay clicked whenever an M03 came up in a program (it's the spindle control relay), so it seems to be working. Have to see how it does once actually hooked up to the machine itself, but so far, so good...



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    Default Re: Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    Not sure where you picked that up, but it's absolutely not true. Thread-milling is no more sensitive to spindle speed than any other milling operation. Rigid tapping is, but you're never going to do that on an X2 in any case.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    Sorry, you're right and I plead ignorance. I am used to rigid tapping cycles (G84). Haven't learned how to program a thread mill yet (I asked my boss to teach me, but he's on vacation for the next few weeks), but honestly without a reversible spindle I would rather hand-tap small holes and thread-mill larger ones.



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Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!

Sieg X2 conversion (Harbor Freight version, FigNoggle plans) - help, please!