Flood Coolant... how to wire it?

[MiniSoCalCNC]

Mike,

Epic reply brother - thank you ... just the type of thoughtful detail a newb like me needs. Pretty much nailed what Im after and where Im stuck. I have elected for the Solid State Relay approach. My SSR is 3-32v Input side ... 24v-380VAC. I have a remote On/Off rocker switch in my circuit as an added twist to the standard arrangement - but pretty straight forward.

My SSR in middle and Coolant power outlet wired in over to the Left.


The 110v side is pretty well sorted .. where Im hung up is on the C11G [ C11GR rev 9.xx to be exact ] ... Going from the C11GR to the input side of the relay - one would think would now merely be a trivial matter - but so help me the documentation for this is just mind boggling sparse or non existent. Several of the diagrams and solutions Ive seen appear to me to be using the pins for the 4th axis ? Id really NOT like to do that. Do I seriously need to rob pin outputs from the 4th Axis to have Mach3 control coolant power / on / off ? COM is jumpered on my BoB as 5v+

Here's a snippet of a diagram I have been using to model my Control Cabinet after ... with C11GR manual page side by side ...



So ... where i keep getting stuck is .. how would using the pins of the COM/5v+ that is "between" Pin 8 and Pin 9 in combination with PIN 9 ... effect my later use of say 4th axis stepper driver connection to PINs 8, common and 9 to a stepper driver ... and these connections for flood coolant? Seems they cant share these PINs right? [ I know this sounds super dumb-newbish ]

The docs about useage of my currently unused PINs [ 1, 14, 16, 17 ] leaves me scratching my head wondering how and when they can be best utilized ...


With there being a 5v GND pin between PINs 16 & 17 ... is it possible to set this BoB up to use that GND - wired to the Negative [ PIN4 ] of the SSR and PIn 14 on the C11GR as the 5v+ going to the SSR on [ PIN 3 ] + positive?

Or do I just need to give up on the notion of leaving PINs 8, Common [ 5v+ ] and PIN 9 open for future use of 4th Axis - and wire it up for coolant?


To further complicate this discussion and add another twist .. If im understanding some of your reply regarding using one of the C11G's 3 onbaord relays .. I could technically run 110v power IN to one of the relay connections, and run 110V OUT via the NO side of the relay to the 110v wall outlet Ive wired in? Strapping 110v to this BoB freaks me out - if Im interpreting that part of your reply correctly.

That said it has me wondering If I could some how use one of the 3 relays [ or the one I will not use for Spindle Control ] - as a relay to ... switch my other relay :-) ????

I feel like Im super close to finalizing this thing - theres just two or three loose ends where Im confused and this is one ...

Current status of Box ...




Hoping to be detailed here in this posting to help others looking for these answers as Ive spent literally 3 days googling and searching this forum for these answers, which astounds me its not readily avail out there in either sample diagram or thread posting ... after I get this sorted Im going to make a sample Diagram and post in here and my build thread... something thats post 2007 - lol. Perhaps Im just dumb and bought an ancient board and should have gotten something more up to date ? I dunno ... seems like a pretty NICE BoB - just wish it had a more newb'ish friendly manual and forum of support.

Thanks for any and all help ...

Old thread but I'll chime in - The C11G on-board relays are good to switch AC or DC. Mechanical relays don't care, as long as the load is under the rated current. The C11G's mechanical relays are good for up to 10A at 125VAC per the product manual. Unless you're switching a load greater than 8-10 amps, use the on-board relay and save a few bucks. You most likely have 110V in your control box anyhow feeding your AC/DC power supplies.

If you're switching a high current load greater than 8-10A, then simply use a free 5V output on the C11G into the SSR's DC control side. Most SSR's will accept a 5V control signal, so you're good to go. Be sure to set your ports and pins configuration accordingly for your desired normally open or normally closed configuration (active low or active high in Mach for example). For the output side of the SSR, you'd simply have the 120V hot wire come into the SSR as pin 1, and your load on pin 2. When your 5V DC goes high, the SSR closes and passes 120V to your load. The common wire for the 120V bypasses the SSR and goes straight to your load, as does the AC ground. Pretty straightforward.

Input or Control Side of SSR (Be sure to use an SSR rated for 5VDC input)
Positive Terminal = 5V Positive from C11G Output (Pins 2-9 on C11G)
Negative Terminal = the 5V Negative or common wired to Pins 2-9 on C11G

Output Side of SSR (Be sure to use an SSR rated for your current load)
Pin 1 = Source 120VAC hot wire (use caution and unplug AC source when wiring this up)
Pin 2 = your load's hot wire, or the hot wire into an AC plug if that's your goal . Pin 2 will receive 120VAC when the 5V output goes high.

[john-100]

if you use pins 2 to 9 to provide the drive for 4 stepper drivers, you only have 4 more outputs

pin 14 to provide the VFD analogue control and

relays1 & 2 controlled by pins 14 & 16 - see VFD mode jumper settings -
for example
US mode
PWM on = RLY 1 on
PWM & REV on = RLY 2 on


and a 3rd relay that can be controlled by pin 1 or 17 depending on jumper setting

so the question is how many of the on board relays do you want to use and how ???

if for instance relay 3 is controlled by pin 17


you could use pin 1 for your SSR

depending on how you have set the COMMON terminal for your stepper drivers
you will need to connect the SSR in one of 2 ways



John


PS
if you do not need to reverse the spindle
by using the international jumper setting

pin 16 that controls relay 2
could be used to control your coolant pump

[MiniSoCalCNC]

John,

Awesome post - reply - MANY thanks sir.

Just when I thought I was about to get away with this solution - simple and easy ... now theres a whole nother wrinkle - LOL.

OK so more details for you ... My C11GR BoB is currently jumpered for my stepper drivers so that COM on 2-9 pins is 5v+

Relays 1-3 ... In my mind at the moment- I had Relays 1 & 2 accounted for to handle Spindle Control - but that is one of the last 2-3 wrinkles Ive yet to work out. I was planning on doing more homework on exactly how to use the C11GR to manage Spindle Control over to my KBMM-125 motor driver. I had made some assumptions after reading the manual sections pertaining to it - that Id need to use relays 1 & 2 and supply 12v Power to the BoB [ 12v power has been run and connected ] - and that Id essentially just be "replacing the potentiometer" - essentially. That may be a very naive and over simplistic assessment on my part - so far thats been the entire process. Me over simplifying my understanding only to dive in and uncover the intricacies.

That said ... appears I need ot first sort out the relays usage - then come back to see what spare pins on the outputs I actually "may" have left over. I had not put together until your post - that PINs 14 - 16 - 17 or 1 were tied to the relays use or controlled by them - however it should be stated. Now I better understand their correlation. You also edited and posted a subsequent image of US vs. Int'l jumpering for the relays 1 and 2 - which at the first 5 blushes - still has me head scratching a bit. Need to get my dome around that too.

Thanks so much for the help and the cool diagrams my good man. 1 step forward 2 steps back for my learning

More to follow.

if you use pins 2 to 9 to provide the drive for 4 stepper drivers, you only have 4 more outputs

pin 14 to provide the VFD analogue control and

relays1 & 2 controlled by pins 14 & 16 - see VFD mode jumper settings -
for example
US mode
PWM on = RLY 1 on
PWM & REV on = RLY 2 on


and a 3rd relay that can be controlled by pin 1 or 17 depending on jumper setting

so the question is how many of the on board relays do you want to use and how ???

if for instance relay 3 is controlled by pin 17


you could use pin 1 for your SSR

depending on how you have set the COMMON terminal for your stepper drivers
you will need to connect the SSR in one of 2 ways



John


PS
if you do not need to reverse the spindle
by using the international jumper setting

pin 16 that controls relay 2
could be used to control your coolant pump

[MiniSoCalCNC]

Reading your post most literally - in the P.S. - Would I need to run the card in the Int'l Mode [ Im in USA for clarification ] in order to get Spindle to reverse with Mach ?

I was making the relay use assumptions based upon this diagram,



but had not yet got my head round the US/INT'L jumpers - as for me - the manual in the C11GR is cryptic. Jumped not jumped? uhhh ok. So does that mean if in USA use jumped ... on USA pins and what on int'l ? - remove the jumper entirely or move it somewhere to a set of pins [ mystery to me ] ...

[john-100]

looking at the C11G + KB120 wiring diagram

only relay 1 is connected to terminals I1 & I2 on the KB120

with no PWM input from pin 14 relay1's N/C contact connects the I1 & I2 terminals on the KB120 ensuring there is no drive to the motor

when there is a PWM signal relay 1's N/C contacts open and the analogue voltage from the C11G sets the motor speed

jumpers


C11G & KB120 PDF diagram


so you can use the International jumper setting to free relay 2 / pin 16




the relay 2 is needed if you use a VFD and want to be able to reverse the motor as in this diagram

C11G & VFD PDF diagram


John

[MiniSoCalCNC]

Good Morning John, [ its still morning here ]

Thank you again for your excellent reply. Apologies for being so dense in this area .

So a couple more points of clarification for me if you will indulge.

1. In order to reverse my motor via Mach 3 - I will require to be running a VFD vs. the KBMM-125 drive ? In other words - in the absence of me using a VFD - reversing the spindle motor with Mach 3 control is not an option ?


2. What are the functions of terminals I1 & I2 on the KBB-120/KBMM-125 - im not actually clear on their actual purpose in this scenario ... my current understanding is they are as described in manual an inhibit switch, however; Im a tad confused if they are being implemented as a DC-Tach Generator - my gut says no on the DC Tach Gen aspect - but the manual details have me guessing. With you comments above about the Relay 1 shutting off the motor in the absence of PWN signal - logic tells me "inhibit Switch", but Ive been wrong on so much to date - want to be sure.

3. If I need not be troubled with attempting to reverse the motor because I am not currently using a VFD - then much of this fuss over open avail pins and relays is for naught [ and still may be ] as i have open avail PINs/Power etc due to that.

4. For a moment - lets assume all THREE Relays are to be occupied for use. Relay 1/2 for above discussed spindle control ... Relay 3 for some other component yet to be discussed/installed and controlled via jumper to PIN 17.
A- would this then leave PIN 1 and the GRND right next to it avail somehow to use as the switch for the SSR ?


And lastly, I thought this was going to get me to the next step but the circuity image on the upper left just confuses me as I just dont know what all that means ... High / Low I/p ? I am currently jumpered so that COM on pins 2-9 = 5v+



This is where Im confused on the drawing you so kindly created and attached



Sorry for this not making much sense and I much appreciate all your input and assistance !

Steve

[john-100]

Hi Steve

the C11G part internal diagram is taken from page 10 of the manual



the C11G board uses a number of 74ACT245 buffer IC's that contain 8 buffers

the diagram shows 1 of 8 identical circuits - one for each PC printer port pins 2 to 9

each pin is connected to 2 buffers - one drives the LED indicator and the other goes to one of the green terminals (2 to 9)

the common to the SSR is the same as you have set as your common to your stepper driver input


using the first diagram

so if you have the jumper for the common +5V going to your stepper driver +step & + direction inputs
then you connect the +5V common to the SSR terminal 3 (+in)

so the SSR terminal 4 (- in) goes to the C11G output
when the output goes low current flows from the common +5V through the SSR's input LED and then ground via the C11G's output terminal switching on the relay

version for outputs 1 ,14 ,16 or 17


if you use printer port pin 1
then when pin 1 is LOW = GND the SSR will be ON

when pin 1 goes HIGH - +5V the SSR relay goes OFF



John

PS
once I have re read the various point I will add more


PPS

from this web site - Variable speed controls - The Warco
this shows how a control board from KB engineering works



when the control voltage between terminals P2 & I2 increases it slowly charges the capacitor C101 via the ACCEL preset potentiometer
the voltage across C101 controls the motor speed

when the speed control potentiometer is turned down (anti-clockwise) C101 is quickly discharged via D1 so the speed is rapidly reduced
when terminals I1 & I2 are short circuited
C101 is shorted so the speed control voltage is zero and the motor's DC supply is OFF

to reverse the motor , you need to stop the motor before you reverse the motor connections and re start the speed control - you will need to add a 2 pole relay to reverse the motor connections - the tricky part is ensuring there is a delay so the motor has stopped before the reversed DC supply is applied

[MiniSoCalCNC]

Ok - many thanks - that clears that up nicely. I suspected as much but - guessing with electricity is never a good thing.

Yes ... as you describe here in quotes is how Im currently set:

using the first diagram

so if you have the jumper for the common +5V going to your stepper driver +step & + direction inputs
then you connect the +5V common to the SSR terminal 3 (+in)

so the SSR terminal 4 (- in) goes to the C11G output
when the output goes low current flows from the common +5V through the SSR's input LED and then ground via the C11G's output terminal switching on the relay

version for outputs 1 ,14 ,16 or 17

[john-100]

to reverse the DC motor connected to a KB120 speed control you will have to replicate this type of manual switch
with a 2 pole relay to reverse the motor connections

note -
the interlock on the manual 3 position switch (Forward, Off , Reverse ) forces you to stop and the restart in the other direction



I guess you could use relay 1 on the C11G board to switch the power on and off to the KB120 board

and relay 2 or pin16 to control a 2 pole relay to reverse the DC supply to the motor

provided you can delay the change in polarity possibly in the G code controlling the relay

John

[MiniSoCalCNC]

OK - so the utilization of forward and reverse of a DC motor thru my KBMM-125 / C11GR appears to be above my current components and ... especially MY capabilities. Im going to take a step back for sake of simplicity and out of sheer frustration as Ive been grappling with this now for over 4 solid days and Im feeling the clock ticking away on me ... I bought these components KBMM/CG11 thinking they were widely used and pretty common and there'd be several gents already gone thru this and the solutions pretty well documented. Perhaps they are and it just falls on blind eyes ...

My motor ... Just as an FYI. Inspired purchase by Hoss.



These videos were the impetus of feeling like I could pull off Forward / Reverse spindle control - but its obvi much more involved than originally anticipated [ so typical ] ...



So now that Ive been wised up and scared off of toying with forward and reverse, back to my basic forward only spindle control and coolant power relay issues ...

Regardless of how this gets done on either Pins 1,14,16,17 etc .. it still appears as if I am left being forced to cannibalize the 5v+/COM between pins 8 & 9 [ aka Output for a 4th Axis ] ....or is that just fine and it wont in anyway interfere with a 4th axis setup ? Meaning that COM/5v+ cna have 2 wires coming out of it - ONE running to the Stepper Driver's PUL+/DIR+ ... and another wire running to the + side of the SSR's PIN /contact [ 3 ] ? I dont think so ... but Im asking anyways.

Like this - works or no - i think not ...

[john-100]

the SSR connections looks OK
with the SSR's positive input connected to any one of the +5V common terminals

seeing you have a treadmill motor
I am not sure , but I think the position of brushes are optimised to minimise sparking when run in the one direction for the treadmill
you will have more sparking when run in reverse

John

PS
whats the part number for the SSR you have

[MiniSoCalCNC]

Thanks John ...

So i can run my 4th axis stepper driver "and" the COM/5+v via another wire off the same connector on the c11GR out to the ssr ? No conflicts or concerns? Very interesting ...

Id have thought thats a no go. Im reading all over that the CNC4PC C11GR board for example really must have isolated power [ 12v ] and cannot be used for powering any other components in the box except the C11GR ... no common ground etc ... So this arrangement on the COM/5+v between PINs 8 & 9 on 4th axis gave me pause ...

Here's my SSR



Here's how I am about to wire the Spindle Control ...



I spent some time detailing some new findings on the KBMM-125 and C11GR in my ongoing build thread ... as - it seems I must make PIN assignments for spindle power and associated relays FISRT before using pins/outputs for this coolant power arrangement

Very weird thread url for my post but ...

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bencht...ing-forum.html

the SSR connections looks OK
with the SSR's positive input connected to any one of the +5V common terminals

seeing you have a treadmill motor
I am not sure , but I think the position of brushes are optimised to minimise sparking when run in the one direction for the treadmill
you will have more sparking when run in reverse

John

PS
whats the part number for the SSR you have

[john-100]

your C11G to KB120 & SSR25 wiring looks OK

just looked again at the new C11G boards manual and to avoid connecting the SSR-25 to the C11G's common (+5V) terminal

you can connect the Ground terminal to the SSR
the SSR-25 now will turn ON when pin 1 goes high ( to +5V)

the C11G only provides a low current to light 2 LED's in the SSR - one is the indicator and the other is in the opto-isolator that switches the Triac on to switch on the external mains load

NOTE-
the one thing to ensure is the ground terminal to the PWM to isolated analogue converter is not confused with any other C11G signal ground that's connected to the printer port ground !!!


note the SSR terminal 4 is now grounded & terminal 3 now goes to the C11G pin 1

looking at the connections to the speed control board
the power supplies negative terminal can be connected either to the KB Electronics board P1 terminal when preset potentiometer R3 is set to minimum resistance or connected to I2



John

PS

found on the web
this is whats inside a SSR-25



note
some fake SSR-25's only have a 12A triac inside !!!!!


PPS

at a later date ,
this is how a 2 pole relay could reverse the connections to the armature of your motor
once a method is found to ensure the motors stopped long enough before its put into reverse

[MiniSoCalCNC]

John,

I cannot even begin to tell you how grateful I am to see this drawing and getting some confirmation on how this could/should be done !!! Thank you man ... times eleventy billion ...

This ... is > than awesome



Thanks for flushing that SSR connection with PIN 1 and GRND out ... I like that waaay mo' bettah ! from there - its just a matter of informing Mach3 how Ive got it set ... I suspect - and then I need to set via jumper PIN 17 to the 3rd relay to make sure there is no confusion.


Id prefer to NOT have to take my SSR apart to make sure its not a FAKE - lol Guess I can find out if its any good by testing if it works via output voltage at the OUTLET plug for the coolant.

Feeling relieved and excited to get this wiring finished up and moving on to testing circuits and powering things on. Putting an order in for a smoothstepper tonight :-) Adding more layers of complexity to the mix.

Im also going to try and get some info from CNC4PC/Arturo about this ... as when I checked my voltage output - with KBMM MAX trimpot maxx'd I got 14.9v and my motor was spinning on testing over 7500 RPM :-) These DIN rail power supplies I have seem to be voltage adjustable - so perhaps if I got an 18V vs. 12V - I too could replicate this guys rpm/success with some voltage tweaking on the PS and diff boards trim pots.

Title: Re: Has anyone actually got a C11 to control a KB speed control via Mach?Post by: nucular on July 07, 2012, 03:03:45 PM


Well, I'm not electrician and it has been a while since I set this up but I will try to help.


Here is the C11. The spindle control is on the bottom right. The black and yellow cables just run to a DB9 port on the box.


(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/q...M/6723f6f5.jpg)


The black and red wires from the C11 (for spindle power) run to a jack for this separate wall plug.


(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/q...M/15993a74.jpg)


You'll notice the power supply is actually 18V. I know that the KB manual states the supply should be 0 to 10 or something like that but my motor is 110V and when I first set this up, I could not get it to power the motor up to full speed. I spoke with Arturo from CNC4PC and he had me measure the voltage across the KB board with the PWM installed and it came out to more like 15V and in order to get 15V out of those leads, I had to use an 18V supply because there is a slight voltage drop.


Here is a shot of the KB board. The control wires from the C11 are the green/black wires in the heat shrink. They are connected to the F- and P2 leads on the KB.


(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/q...M/4c268ca9.jpg)


Now, I don't have my motor wired directly to the KB. I have a g0704 and the original box had a FORWARD/REVERSE switch in place so I just left it (even though I don't use reverse). I believe if you wanted, you could just run the A+/A- directly to the motor. My A+ and A- go into the switch and from there it feeds back out to the motor (2 and 6 in this photo):


(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/q...M/P1050631.jpg)


After that it was just a matter of setting it up in ports and pins:


(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/q...h3_spindle.jpg)

wondering now how the smoothstepper adds more options for ports and pins. Will be back with a follow up post after this stuf covered here is wired and working or if more tribulations ensue.

Many grateful thanks for all the enlightenment and assistance

Steve

P.S. - im going to try and draw up a rendition of how I have my 5v and 12v PS wired from the 110v side thru to the C11GR and the 110v COMM and GRNDs - I keep reading about this ISOLATION of the 2 voltages and no grounds or other components to be powered by these supplies if sending power to this BoB ... Does that mean even the 110v power side no shared commons/grounds there as well?
The learning never ends... nor do the queries.

[john-100]

yes, put relay 3's jumper to pin 17
making pin 1 available for the SSR

from what I remember reading a while ago

the 2 ports from the smooth stepper duplicate a PC's parallel printer port - pins 2 to 9 being bi directional
the 3rd if I remember correctly pins 2 to 9 are only outputs

John

[MiniSoCalCNC]

Ok ... see now youve gone and got me all intrigued and wanting to fritter away hrs researching a way to do this LOL dahhg Nahhhbit !

Did you perchance watch the video I linked in here of Hoss using the treadmill motor Im using as a "servo" with an encoder and merely a C6 board? Im sure that took some doing and tweaking in Mach to make it work but ... perhaps it holds some clues to a solution. I think his RPM limitation with that setup was due to the board having a 10v max - which left him at about 3200 RPM max. It sure looked like it [ in subsequent vids ] was doing some nice Rigid Tapping.

Probably a ton more involved behind the scenes than in the video[s] - but it was pretty bad azzzz

PPS

at a later date ,
this is how a 2 pole relay could reverse the connections to the armature of your motor
once a method is found to ensure the motors stopped long enough before its put into reverse

[john-100]

now I know what you want to do

using the KBMM-125 and the relay is going to be brutal on any taps when you use them for rigid tapping

the Gecko G320X servo will give you better control
so you have total control of both the axis up & down position
and the speed & position of the spindle motor

John

[MiniSoCalCNC]

I stand corrected - it was the Gecko 320x - not a C6 board - u r absolutely correct and the limitation was the 80V max output ....

Interesting thing - hes rigged up a switch between the KBMM-125 and the Gecko [ apparently ... discussed in a subsequent video ] Hoss is crafty.

now I know what you want to do

using the KBMM-125 and the relay is going to be brutal on any taps when you use them for rigid tapping

the Gecko G320X servo will give you better control
so you have total control of both the axis up & down position
and the speed & position of the spindle motor

John

[MiniSoCalCNC]

Well another day another Plot Twist !!! Arrrgghhh ...

Im going thru the manual again today after landing some more wires as per some prior posts and reading up for clarification of jumper settings .. two new wrinkles pop up. First ...

------------------

If Im reading the C11GR manual pages correctly - the use of the SCHP - Safety Charge Pump - feature of the board - which I want to do as it sounds like an outstanding feature ... utilizes PIN 17! So if PIN 17 is allocated to SCHP and PIN 1 is now to be utilized for Coolant Power Relay switching - not sure where that leaves that 3rd relay which is also associated with either of those two pins ... does it just go dormant and un-usable ... Or does the use of SCHP on 17 mean that Relay 3 is now tied to PIN 1 and I cant use PIN for coolant on/off relay any longer? Pins Pins ... my kingdom for more free PINS ... [ i think ]

P.S. to this section here ^^^^ - I "think" if I set Relay 3 via jumper to PIN 17 and enable the SCHP feature whats going to happen is PIN 17 goes high when Mach3 has control - which then enables the C11GR in its entirety [ provided the ENABLE switch/jumper is activated ] ... and thus the RELAY 3 associated with PIN 17 - could then trigger/switch on some other "thing/component" as well ... no harm no foul. Hope this understanding is accurate.

---------------

And then lastly, lets assume that I can still use PIn 1 as intended for Coolant relay switching ... is there a difference between the GND next to PIN 1 and the GND between PINs 16 and 17 ? Seems easier and cleaner to wire - if I can just use the GND next to PIN 1 ...



Thanks ...

Steve

... off to try and discern more out of the manual re: PIn 1/17 and Relay 3 and Safety Charge Pump

[john-100]

Hi Steve

I expect both of the 2 Ground terminals (marked in post 59) will be connected to the printer port Ground and the 5V power supply negative terminal - a quick resistance check will confirm this

assuming you keep pins 2 to 9 for controlling 4 axis

yes your are correct about the pin 17 conflict

relay 3 can only be controlled by either pin 1 or 17 (so pin 1 can only control relay 3 or the SSR ?)

but the charge pump needs to use pin 17 !! ( had forgotten about that)

the PWM to analogue converter is connected to pin 14

if you select international mode

pin 14 also switches on relay1

pin 16 can control relay 2 , which you can use for some thing other than reversing the treadmill motor

John