Reply with QuoteHave you considered a Haas Officemill? I haven't used one myself, but it looks like a nice piece of equipment.Originally Posted by jid2
Frederic
We are looking at a Tormach for work as well. We can't fit a VMC in the elevator to go up to our 4th floor office. And buying used isn't an option - we don't have time to fix stuff, it needs to just work. The Tormach is looking really good - especially with the ATC. I've been screwing around with a bunch of nice Solidworks integrated CAM packages so we have an idea of what it will take to run our typical prototypes.
This has also motivated me to work on my home machine!
PM-45 CNC conversion built/run/sold.
Have you considered a Haas Officemill? I haven't used one myself, but it looks like a nice piece of equipment.
Frederic
^^^^ We can't spend $50K+ on the machine alone. The Tormach is a pretty good value for what we need.
PM-45 CNC conversion built/run/sold.
I didn't mention going in to production because I hadn't done a production job yet. Now I have, and on small parts, up to about 6 X 4 X 2 inches, I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
Granted, you can't take a 3/4 inch end mill and take a full width cut an inch and a half deep, but you can't do that on a Haas either. Yes, the Tormach rapids at 90 IPM and a Haas rapids at 700 to 1000 IPM, but when you're only moving 3 inches, who cares. By the end of the day, maybe the Haas will run 50 parts, and my Tormach will have run 45. But, with my Tormach, I didn't spend $75,000.00, and I do it in my garage, and tool holders are $27.00 instead of $72.00. My electric bill is $190.00, and that is for my house as well. When i had my shop, my electric bill was $225.00, and that was just for the machines and lights.
The production job I just finished had to have the program redone about 4 times until I found the optimum program for the part I was running. I started out making linear cuts, and the part took about a half hour to run. I ended up using a plunge ruff progral and finished a part in a little over 13 minutes. Granted, my Haas with 7.5 HP would have been faster, but my Tormach didn't cost $75,000.00.
I wouldn't trade my Tormach for another Haas, even after the way I was treated by Haas when I had to send mine back. But that's another story for another time. I have nothing but good things to say about Haas in that respect.
Steve..
I am very glad your are happy with your Tormach. It is a nice machine for what it is. I will not re-iterate all the points I made before. They stand for themselves. The Tormach is fine if you are okay with very slow speeds, minimal power, minimal travels, around .001 accuracy, .001 backlash, and a not so rigid benchtop machine. If you want or need more than that a used VMC is an obvious choice. Your numbers on a lot of those costs are also questionable but hey again I do not want to get into an argument here. I stand by what I said, you are happy making small parts runs with your Tormach, that is great, I am doing the same thing with my CNC'd RF45 which is a very similar machine. I would trade it in a New York Second for even the smallest Slowest VMC. I have the room, I can power it, I can move it, it would work great for what I want to do and that is to make a bunch of parts. Enjoy your Tormach man.. Cheers and peace...
Pete
Good morning Pete, my point was not to start or participate in an argument.
You're absolutely right. A small used VMC will run rings around my Tormach. Maybe someday I'll even look in to another VMC. I think before I look at a used one though, I would look at a new Haas.
I said in an earlier post that I had a Haas TM1 in my shop. I had heart surgery in October 2007 and had to send the machine back because I couldn't make the payments. I owed a little over $14,000.00 on the machine, they took it back and sold it for $22,000.00. They took $2000.00 off the top, and sent me the difference. They sent me almost $6,000.00. That's customer service.
Haas machines will not machine along with the Mori's and Mazak's of the world, but if you run them the way they are designed to be run, they can't be beat. A Haas is NOT a good steel cutting machine, but on aluminum, you can't beat it.
In my shop/garage, my primary objective is to do 1 to 10 piece orders, and prototype machining. If you have a production job, I can be competetive up to about 25 pieces. After that, NFW. I have a product line for remote control model race boats, and cars. For those I will run 100 pcs. If it takes me a week ot two to do it, then it takes a week or two to do it. But I only do that stuff as fill in. I only do it when I have no other work to do.
I have a couple of people who manage to keep me almost as busy as I want to be. And they pay me reasonably well too.
Steve....
Hey man I can sympathize with ya. I had to have part of my right lung removed last year when they thought I had cancer. It took me nearly eight months to be able to do anything resembling work. I am still not what I want to be and now I am having some Gastro issues. I use my RF45 CNC to do much the same as you are. I make custom prototypes for a select few people and I make parts runs up to say 200 or so for those same people. They have often wanted me to do more than that and I am apprehensive to take it on simply due to the fact that my machine is not a commercial machine with a toolchanger and I would be working real cheap even if I could do it for them due to the time per part issues. The VMC's I am looking at are nowhere near as expensive as a Brand new Haas and honestly from what I hear of their machines from Pro's there are better machines out there. I know some guys love them but others seem to ***** about them to no end. I guess it is like anything else, you buy a new car and it works and it is the greatest car in the world, you buy a new car and it breaks down on ya, well... then it is the biggest Piece of trash in the world. Honestly I would be happy with any working VMC at this point. Just having Cat tooling some real horsepower and a toolchanger in a fullsize bedmill would make for much better turnaround for my parts. I am also talking with some other people who have seen my work and parts and they are POSSIBLY gonna want me to make some other parts in larger numbers. Ya never know when the next big job will come or even if it will. Having at least a Decent VMC makes it at least a possibility to be able to bid these jobs and have a smokin' chance of getting them. Remember that you are NEVER the only guy in town with a VMC either so just having one does not preclude you will get the jobs. I have pretty much decided that this is the direction I want to go with my future in working for myself doing machine work. I just gotta find the right people who want me to make cool parts and are willing to pay me alright for them. Hey if you get something you do not want to mess with you know where to send them right!! haha peace
Pete
Lucky... no. Prepared because we put in a 200 amp service back when my wife decided we needed a 4 seasons sunroom (that I never use).
I ran a 100A subpanel out to my detached heated garage, which is only 5 feet from my house (corner to corner). That was handy when I ran the NG line for the water heater, too. I couldn't budget amps for heating it during the winter so NG was the alternative, which has been pretty reasonable, too (about $60/month) to run the radiant heat in the slab-on-grade.
Joe
So you could say I cheated to get my 60A circuit.
Joe....
Just out of curiosity, how do you find the power consumption of that Cincinatti? Do you feel like you are using the 60 amps or could you maybe run it on a 50 amp circuit. I run my HEAVY DUTY L-Tec Commercial Tig unit here and it is not an inverter unit off my 50 amp and I have never even felt it get warm. Your Cinci is like 20x20x20 right? Peace
Pete
I considered a Haas Office Mill (OM2), but it was $50,000 plus tooling. They take ISO20 tool holders and that stuff's expensive. Sure they're a little faster, but for the extra $35,000.00 I can live with the slower speed of the Tormach.
The OM1 has a 12 X 10 X 8 envelope. My Tormach has 18 X 9.5 X 16.25 XYZ respectively.
Just read all 6 pgs and an interesting discussion for sure. Just going to throw in my .02
I considered the Tormach, in fact planned on it. I kept telling myself that for maybe double what I'd spend on the PCNC1100 I could find a decent used VMC. Life was such that I didn't need to move quickly (nor was I able to).
I ended up coming across a '93 Tree VMC1060. It is big, has a tool changer, takes a lot of space, needs 80 amps of 3 phase service (have plenty at my shop, so not a concern) and difficult for me to program. It won't always be the latter - the learning curve has been interrupted by many things so far.
I'm a hobbyist and will only make short runs of small parts. Fact is the x2 I had before was sufficient for most of what I was doing. It was also limiting my creativity and willingness to expand.
Yes, I wish I could just fire up Mach3 and run this new to me mill - but I can't. I'm confident I'll DNC files before much longer. In the meantime, I've machined some large items (manually) and made a few happy folks, and a few bucks in the process.
I didn't plan to have such a large machine - but with 8,500 sq. ft of empty shop now, and 600 amps of 480 service I wasn't limited. I was able to test the machine personally, and verify that it functioned before it was removed from service. All in, including a nice old 14x36 lathe and a 24x36 surface plate, delivered, and wired I'm under $12K. Have spent about $500 so far in tooling (CAT40) and am sure I'll spend more - but I spent a lot on R8 tooling before so I was prepared for it.
So, what's my point? A VMC CAN be a viable option as Pete and others have suggested. The path to real production might not be as quick or easy, and yes, this particular unit won't fit in many home shops...but you don't have to go this big. I missed a nice older Haas (VM2?) for $8500 just a month before I found this one.
The deals are out there. Have to watch for them, ask around, and be willing to drive an hour or two to check things out.
Do I wish I had a Tormach? Truth is yes - it would be cool to have IN ADDITION to this machine. But I know this machine is going to take me farther in this *hobby* than the Tormach likely would have. Of course, if I am wrong, I can sell it and buy something else
Bill
Just read all 6 pgs and an interesting discussion for sure. Just going to throw in my .02
I considered the Tormach, in fact planned on it. I kept telling myself that for maybe double what I'd spend on the PCNC1100 I could find a decent used VMC. Life was such that I didn't need to move quickly (nor was I able to).
I ended up coming across a '93 Tree VMC1060. It is big, has a tool changer, takes a lot of space, needs 80 amps of 3 phase service (have plenty at my shop, so not a concern) and difficult for me to program. It won't always be the latter - the learning curve has been interrupted by many things so far.
I'm a hobbyist and will only make short runs of small parts. Fact is the x2 I had before was sufficient for most of what I was doing. It was also limiting my creativity and willingness to expand.
Yes, I wish I could just fire up Mach3 and run this new to me mill - but I can't. I'm confident I'll DNC files before much longer. In the meantime, I've machined some large items (manually) and made a few happy folks, and a few bucks in the process.
I didn't plan to have such a large machine - but with 8,500 sq. ft of empty shop now, and 600 amps of 480 service I wasn't limited. I was able to test the machine personally, and verify that it functioned before it was removed from service. All in, including a nice old 14x36 lathe and a 24x36 surface plate, delivered, and wired I'm under $12K. Have spent about $500 so far in tooling (CAT40) and am sure I'll spend more - but I spent a lot on R8 tooling before so I was prepared for it.
So, what's my point? A VMC CAN be a viable option as Pete and others have suggested. The path to real production might not be as quick or easy, and yes, this particular unit won't fit in many home shops...but you don't have to go this big. I missed a nice older Haas (VM2?) for $8500 just a month before I found this one.
The deals are out there. Have to watch for them, ask around, and be willing to drive an hour or two to check things out.
Do I wish I had a Tormach? Truth is yes - it would be cool to have IN ADDITION to this machine. But I know this machine is going to take me farther in this *hobby* than the Tormach likely would have. Of course, if I am wrong, I can sell it and buy something else
Bill
Bill,
Congrats on a BIG VMC.... 40x24 makes me salivate just thinking about it. That is a big powerful machine. I seriously doubt I will get anything that big but it sure would be nice. Sounds like you got a good deal on it as well. Since you say you are a hobbyist that is actually quite interesting, that is quite the hobby machine!! Also I would be curious as to exactly how many amps that monster is using when it is running and on start up. you mention 80 amps, that is a BUNCH of power but I am curious as to just how much it really uses. I intend to hook whatever VMC I eventually wind up with to a 50 amp circuit in my shop that I have been using for my big commercial Tig welder. If it is not enough ( I doubt it) I will run a larger circuit but I am only looking for a 7.5-10 HP machine. I would love to find a 30x20 with that HP for a reasonable price but I am still saving my pennies right now. For me it started out as a hobby but is quickly turning into an occupation that I quite enjoy. As far as the control on your machine. I am sure it is quite like anything else. Once you get in there and spend some time it will become as easy to use to you as mach 3 was for your little X2. It all takes time to learn regardless of the machine. Luckily the basics are the same across the range. Good luck with your sweet monster VMC man... I have seen bigger machines quite a bit but for a hobby machine that one takes the cake....peace
Pete
