To Tormach or Not ???

[mmprestine]

I agree if you have the space get a real VMC.

The novakon issues have been updated in the series 2, most being the spindle controller and it is now a VFD and 3-phase AC motor.

To see some good vids you might want to look at the smither 1240 as I believe Novakon and it are the same machine.

Smithy

[thedave]

I will be purchasing a Tormach 1100 in the next few months. For me it was a business decision. The first consideration was what would work. My part sizes, and production runs will be small enough I don't need a large or fast machine. Next I looked at service. Tormach seems to be the best for it's class of machine. I also took a look at used VMCs. Even I could find a really good machine, it will need service at some point. A has TMP-1 Spindle cartridge is about $ 2100 vs $ 545 for the Tormach. You could get in to some really expensive repairs on a Used VMC.

[skray775]

This is what I'm wondering... If you have a working machine, why change?

Great feedback guys,

First thank you Pete for the kind words about my build!

I have 3 reasons to upgrade:

1) Z axis and the rigidity or lack of with the unlocked floating quill of the round column machine. A square column would allow me to lock the quill or eliminate it all together and I think that would vastly improve the finish I am getting on my parts.

2) Square colunm for the reasons above and for the tooling issues I run into with only 4" of Z travel.

3) Work envelope, my current machine is x-13" by y-6.4" by z-4".

So for the sake of argument and your help lets add up what a build would cost:

Machine = 2800 - I'm thinking an IH or MTW MD001 i think its called.
Delivery = 300 ?
Motor speed control belt drive conversion = 400 ?
900 watt Servo's, drivers, cables, etc from DMM Tech = 1300
Ball screws and nuts bearings = 600 ?
One shot oiler and fittings, I have one but need valves = 100
Coolant pump and tank, again I have one around = 0
Power draw bar parts like HOSS's = 350
Stand parts and hardware = 300
Metal for mounts etc = 300

total = 6,450


Tormach:
Machine = 8500
Shipping = 480 - I called
Power draw bar = 2200

Total = 11,180

Did I forget anything?

[Hans_G]

Did I forget anything?

I know this place has the DIY mentality, so everyone is replying with a DIY mindset.

You are making RC helicopter parts.

With whatever machine you end up with, do you see yourself
a) selling 1,000 more copies, and then 1,000 more
b) making and selling 100 more copies, and then designing a bigger, badder version which you will make 4 prototypes of before settling on V2, and then sell another 100 copies of V2 (and then repeat for V3)
c) selling 14 copies, then making a better version and selling 8 copies of that, and then making a better version and making 6 copies of that, and then making a better version yet and selling the design to <insert RC Heli Brand here> for $????

if you answered...
a) consider finding a contract manufacturer.
b) Tormach
c) gets harder to justify the investment when you clearly have the skills to make a capable CNC mill for 1/2 the price.

[TXFred]

Tormach:
Machine = 8500
Shipping = 480 - I called
Power draw bar = 2200

Total = 11,180

Did I forget anything?

You're on a budget, so I'll make recommendations while keeping that in mind.

USB, keyboard and mouse extension cables. Get them locally. Tormach overcharges for them. You may not need these since you're not getting a Tormach stand.

I highly recommend a foot pedal for the power draw bar. You don't HAVE to use Tormach's. Any old foot pedal will do, as it plugs into the drawbar's board via a RJ-11 jack. If you don't have a pedal, tool changes involve holding the new tool, removing the old tool, and holding the drawbar button. That is a three handed job.

The monitor/keyboard arms are pretty nice. A second one on the left side for the tool rack is even nicer. That said, there's no reason you cannot make your own.

Remote emergency stop button. To reach the stock button, you have to reach across the machine, which puts your chest uncomfortably close to whatever emergency is currently happening at the cutter. It's pretty simple to add another button where you can reach it.

If you're using your own PC, then you don't need to purchase the Tormach copy of Mach. In any case, it probably won't install correctly onto your PC. I tried it on my old CNC control PC, and it did not work. That means you'll have to configure Mach on your own.

Frederic

[LazyMan]

Now having said all of that I must go back to my own personal argument about the Tormach. The problem for me with the Tormach machine is that once you are willing to drop that much coin on a Tormach machine IE ready to run with tooling and the deluxe stand, and the typical upgrades not even including the toolchanger you are well into the $10k range. For that kind of money there are MANY used commercial machine tools out there that will literally run circles around the Tormach

Where are all these wonderful used commercial machines in the $10k range? Perhaps others have been fortunate, but I do not think anyone could convince me that I could have a reliable VMC in my garage for around $10,000.

[pete from TN]

You must be pretty lazy indeed. They are basically all over the internet. You just need to look harder. I am TRYING to save up the cash but I could have bought several decent machines in running condition over the last few months if I could scrape up the coin. Still working on that. IF you are willing to spend around $15k it gets even easier. There are many old Fadals, Hurco's, Milltronics, Cincinatti's, and others that are being replaced with newer machines in pro shops or unfortunately there are shops going under all over the country and there are tons of reclamation companies and auction companies that buy them up or contract them to sell and while some of them ask crazy prices there are many that just want to liquidate them. I get daily emails from several companies that are doing just that. Once you decide what sort of machine you are interested it is just a matter of finding one in your price range and then travelling to see it in person. Most of them you can see under power and hear them run. Then of course there is Ebay but honestly most of those guys think they have gold and price it accordingly. Many of these machines will haunt Ebay for months on end with no change in price. Finally there are the various machinist sites who have their own classifieds including this one. The machines are out there you just have to look for them and know what your are looking for. You can hire a pro to check out the machine for a couple hundred bucks and get some piece of mind. I have been trying to pick one up for quite awhile now but I suffer from being a poor bastard and scraping up $10k is a tall order for me. I will get there tho. Peace


Pete

[mcphill]

Would you care to share some of the specific sites and links you are using? I know eBay's link, so I don't need that one

[pete from TN]

One I get regular mailings from is Machinetools.com and another is Emachinetools.com. Honestly if you just search for any particular machine tool brand you will find many many tool resellers and if you respond with queries to any of them they will find you!! Then you get a lot of mailings from people you had not even contacted. Sometimes it can be annoying but I have it narrowed down to those I would do business with and block the rest. These sights obviously sell machines in EVERY price range and you have to weed thru a bit to find the deals in your price range but they are out there. I have seen a lot of machines posted on craigslist that I find using Crazedlist in areas I am willing to travel to. Many times shops try to sell their machines locally first and post them hoping to avoid paying rigging fees to have them moved. It is quite like anything else. If you have the money and are really wanting to find it you can find it online.

Of course these are USED machines and you have to be very careful what you are buying because parts for these machines can often be very expensive and in some instances the parts may not even be available. That is where your own research comes into play. Most of the larger companies are still in business and parts are usually available and even if they do not carry them some of the companies sell the rights to the used parts to aftermarket companies who continue to produce and sell them. Just like anything else you pays your monies and takes your chances. With the Exception of Tormach who sounds like they back their products I feel like the risk you take is about equal. You either buy a questionable chinese CNC mill and hope it works and that the company will back it when you have an issue or you buy a used machine and hope that nothing serious will go wrong with it. It really helps if you are capable and willing to work on your own machine. I would venture to say that if you are willing to take on building your own CNC mill from scratch or retrofitting a mill that you probably have what it takes to work on an older commercial machine at least you have the right mindset. There are no guarantees in life from ANYONE and personally I would rather take a chance on a professionally built machine that was designed for a production environment and has a sizable aftermarket of used parts and suppliers as well as something of a mass market appeal than to dump $10 plus grand into a chinese benchtop machine that has trouble taking what would be considered very light cuts on most any industrial machine. It really comes down to what you want to do with it. If all you want is a hobby machine and make the occasional part or even a small run of parts then a Tormach is not a bad choice. If you want real travels, power, speed, a toolchanger built in, heavier duty tooling, a full enclosure, etc. etc. etc. then maybe a used VMC is in the cards for you. There is also the middle ground in a commercial bedmill or even a larger knee mill with CNC controls. Some of these machines even have toolchangers on them. Fab up a nice table enclosure and you have a pretty capable machine. There are lots of options here OTHER than a chinese bench mill. Peace

Pete

[sansbury]

(DIY Build)
total = 6,450

Tormach:
Total = 11,180

Did I forget anything?

Resale value on the Tormach will be much better, in case you need to dump it for whatever reason.

With Tormach there is a clear, bolt-on upgrade path to an ATC, which gets you near-VMC capabilities for prototyping/small runs. The 770 also has that 10K spindle, which is awesome for aluminum and small cutters. I don't know any other way to get something close to that without spending new-car money.

If you're making prototypes and small batches, the only things a VMC will do much faster are break tools and consume electricity. And if it breaks, it will definitely consume money a lot faster. And remember, replacement parts are priced in line with what those machines cost new.

The Novakon and straight-from-China specials are IMHO "project machines" just like the DIY conversions are. So long as they are priced accordingly, they're fine. Having converted or built 5 CNC machines, I've decided my next purchase will be a Tormach or something similarly supported and proven ready-to-run. I'm more interested in making chips than anything else.

[pete from TN]

I am curious as to what those five CNC machines you built are? I know you have an X2..... Peace

Pete

[sansbury]

Two scratch-built router tables, X1 conversion, X2 conversion, and a 7x lathe conversion.

[Spinnetti]

Great feedback guys,

First thank you Pete for the kind words about my build!

I have 3 reasons to upgrade:

1) Z axis and the rigidity or lack of with the unlocked floating quill of the round column machine. A square column would allow me to lock the quill or eliminate it all together and I think that would vastly improve the finish I am getting on my parts.

2) Square colunm for the reasons above and for the tooling issues I run into with only 4" of Z travel.

3) Work envelope, my current machine is x-13" by y-6.4" by z-4".

So for the sake of argument and your help lets add up what a build would cost:

Machine = 2800 - I'm thinking an IH or MTW MD001 i think its called.
Delivery = 300 ?
Motor speed control belt drive conversion = 400 ?
900 watt Servo's, drivers, cables, etc from DMM Tech = 1300
Ball screws and nuts bearings = 600 ?
One shot oiler and fittings, I have one but need valves = 100
Coolant pump and tank, again I have one around = 0
Power draw bar parts like HOSS's = 350
Stand parts and hardware = 300
Metal for mounts etc = 300

total = 6,450


Tormach:
Machine = 8500
Shipping = 480 - I called
Power draw bar = 2200

Total = 11,180

Did I forget anything?

Depends on if you like making machines for fun, or if its just a means to an end.... If just a means to an end, you forgot Labor, Labor, Troubleshooting, adjusting, labor, and more troubleshooting. I guess I could say I'm sorta in your shoes. I'm making fully scale working landing gear for small electric planes - I have my own converted round column mill (DC Servo). It works good, but I want to spend less time upgrading the machine and more on making stuff, so I'm going to sell my Grizzly and get a Tormach as soon as I do...

[SCzEngrgGroup]

A used VMC may be relatively inexpensive to buy, if you're lucky enough to find the right one in your area. But it will cost you at least $500-1000 to hire a rigger just to move it (they weigh from 3000-5000 pounds, and you can't just get a couple of buddies to lift it into your pickup truck). Many are too tall to fit through a standard household garage door. Many will REQUIRE 3-phase power, which, as a rule, you can't even get in a residential area. If it's tired (which you won't really know until you've run it a while), or if it breaks, you could easily spend the initial cost all over again in parts or services to repair it.

The Tormach is a very capable machine, and very well supported. If it breaks, you can get replacement parts quickly, and you won't need to take out a second mortgage to do it. The difference in speed and precision between a Tormach and a VMC will be pretty small. OK if you really need that, but a whole lot of applications simply don't require it.

And for those of us trying to make a living with our machines, the "opportunity cost" of the time and effort to do a DIY conversion is a money loser - big time! I figure I can pretty easily make $50/hour running my machine cranking out product. If it takes me even just two months to do a conversion, and get it fully sorted out (and I very much doubt ANYONE here has done it that quickly!), I've lost as much as $16,000, and I won't have the benefit of the years of refinement something like the Tormach has had. So, to me, paying $10-12K for a Tormach is money very well spent, as I can start cranking out money-making parts in a matter of a few days. And you have the option of springing for the power drawbar and ATC if you find you need them down the road. I don't know any other machine that gives you that option.

Regards,
Ray L.

[jeremy0203]

id say go for it.

[LazyMan]

You must be pretty lazy indeed. They are basically all over the internet

I really don't understand how those two links qualify as being "basically all over the internet." I have scouted both those sites before and I really have not seen much in the $10k range in the same or neighboring state that doesn't scream "I need new parts soon." I think many would disagree about the risks involved in purchasing a Tormach being equal to purchasing a very low priced old VMC.

And for those of us trying to make a living with our machines, the "opportunity cost" of the time and effort to do a DIY conversion is a money loser - big time! I figure I can pretty easily make $50/hour running my machine cranking out product. If it takes me even just two months to do a conversion, and get it fully sorted out (and I very much doubt ANYONE here has done it that quickly!), I've lost as much as $16,000, and I won't have the benefit of the years of refinement something like the Tormach has had. So, to me, paying $10-12K for a Tormach is money very well spent, as I can start cranking out money-making parts in a matter of a few days. And you have the option of springing for the power drawbar and ATC if you find you need them down the road. I don't know any other machine that gives you that option.

Ray's post pretty much sums up what I wanted to say.
no

[pete from TN]

[QUOTE=HimyKabibble;1017525]A used VMC may be relatively inexpensive to buy, if you're lucky enough to find the right one in your area. But it will cost you at least $500-1000 to hire a rigger just to move it (they weigh from 3000-5000 pounds, and you can't just get a couple of buddies to lift it into your pickup truck). Many are too tall to fit through a standard household garage door. Many will REQUIRE 3-phase power, which, as a rule, you can't even get in a residential area. If it's tired (which you won't really know until you've run it a while), or if it breaks, you could easily spend the initial cost all over again in parts or services to repair it.


All of this is true, you will probably need to pay for a rigger as most of these machines are in the 5-8000 lb range and you will need a phase converter which is around a grand or so. They are not small and will often not fit thru a standard garage door altho many of them will or some pieces such as the Z axis motor or some sheetmetal parts may be removed to make them fit.

The Tormach is a very capable machine, and very well supported. If it breaks, you can get replacement parts quickly, and you won't need to take out a second mortgage to do it. The difference in speed and precision between a Tormach and a VMC will be pretty small. OK if you really need that, but a whole lot of applications simply don't require it.

Now I dunno where you got this idea, the difference between the speed, precision and power of even a small VMC is HUGE!! You need to visit a real machine shop some time and see what it looks like. There is simply NO comparison between a Tormach and ANY vmc. The tormach is a freakin' toy in comparison and most Professionals do not even consider it anything more than a glorified hobby machine. REAL VMC's have accuracy into the tenths and are made from infinitely better materials even if they are tired. There is simply no comparison at all here. Tormach does stand behind their product but so do a lot of other manufacturers. Most of the better backed machines even when they are no longer produced have support and parts houses around the country. Whether or not you need that speed, power, accuracy is up to the buyer.


And for those of us trying to make a living with our machines, the "opportunity cost" of the time and effort to do a DIY conversion is a money loser - big time! I figure I can pretty easily make $50/hour running my machine cranking out product. If it takes me even just two months to do a conversion, and get it fully sorted out (and I very much doubt ANYONE here has done it that quickly!), I've lost as much as $16,000, and I won't have the benefit of the years of refinement something like the Tormach has had. So, to me, paying $10-12K for a Tormach is money very well spent, as I can start cranking out money-making parts in a matter of a few days. And you have the option of springing for the power drawbar and ATC if you find you need them down the road. I don't know any other machine that gives you that option.


Agreed, DIY conversions for the most part are way too time consuming to really make them practical from a business standpoint. That is changing with some of the plug in controllers now popping up on the market lately but it is still very time consuming. If I knew anything about CNC when I started this I would have tried to just buy a machine. I learned a great deal building my machine and it has made me money but it took a very long time to get it finished and get the bugs worked out. I disagree that $10-12k for a tormach and then adding their very nicely done toolchanger is anything near money well spent again because it puts you in the position to buy a very nice used VMC with a fullly equipped Tormach coming in at 16k or so with the toolchanger. It is just not a good value unless you simply do not have ANY aspirations of making parts runs of any consequence. A real VMC, even a small one that most machinists would consider a lightweight will run circles around a Tormach no matter what you put on it. At the end of the day it is still a lightweight chinese mill. It is probably the creme of the crop of lightweight chinese mills but still nowhere near what a VMC is and for that matter really not in the same league as even some CNC knee mills as far as power and accuracy goes. The end of the day is there simply is NO comparison.

Another thing that has not been brought up is that idea that you can buy a used VMC that has a bad controller and retrofit the control. There are many machines in this situation and if you are clever and good with this stuff you can arrive at quite a machine with the modern computer based controls for a relatively low price. See the machines retrofitted by JH choppers and others on here and the Machsupport website. Well done and used in a commercial business to make custom parts for Harley Davidsons and choppers. Just another option. But if you do not mind paying top dollar for a light duty chinese bench mill the Tormach is about the best one around.....peace

Pete

[philbur]

Power draw bar = 2200?

Phil

Tormach:
Machine = 8500
Shipping = 480 - I called
Power draw bar = 2200

[sansbury]

Another thing that has not been brought up is that idea that you can buy a used VMC that has a bad controller and retrofit the control. There are many machines in this situation and if you are clever and good with this stuff you can arrive at quite a machine with the modern computer based controls for a relatively low price. See the machines retrofitted by JH choppers and others on here and the Machsupport website.

This would pretty much be my preferred approach if I needed a low-cost VMC, since a machine with a dead control can go for close to scrap-iron prices. However, they're almost always going to be 3-phase, heavier than your average car, and need $2-5k for interface boards, etc. AND, this will likely make a DIY build look easy by comparison. And you still need to know how to evaluate the mechanical condition of the beast.

[MichaelHenry]

Now I dunno where you got this idea, the difference between the speed, precision and power of even a small VMC is HUGE!! You need to visit a real machine shop some time and see what it looks like. There is simply NO comparison between a Tormach and ANY vmc. The tormach is a freakin' toy in comparison and most Professionals do not even consider it anything more than a glorified hobby machine. REAL VMC's have accuracy into the tenths and are made from infinitely better materials even if they are tired. There is simply no comparison at all here. Tormach does stand behind their product but so do a lot of other manufacturers. Most of the better backed machines even when they are no longer produced have support and parts houses around the country. Whether or not you need that speed, power, accuracy is up to the buyer.

I've never run a commercial VMC but I have run through CAM simulations to see what difference the available rapid speed makes for the type of project I run with my Tormach. I have the series I PCNC 1100 which maxes out at 65 ipm rapid and as I understand it a typical commercial VMC will rapid at 1000 ipm or thereabouts.

Using these two rapid speeds, the run time for one of my typical projects is only 10% greater at my 65 ipm rapid than it would be for a 1,000 ipm rapid speed. The machining speeds and feeds for that "typical" project were as recommended by G-Wizard and generally fall within the speed and feed envelope of the Tormach. From that quick and dirty analysis, it seems like there is no significant advantage in run time for the VMC over the Tormach.

Has anybody else run a similar analysis? I'd be curious to see if my results can be verified by someone else.

I would agree that a good VMC is probably more accurate and certainly more rigid than the Tormach. None of the parts I've made with the Tormach in the past 5 years has failed to have sufficient accuracy, though. These are usually parts used in R&D prototypes for chemical engineering test systems and the accuracy required is 0.002" or less for most dimensions.

My main control board failed after the warranty period had expired and list price on the replacement was less than $500. I don't know for sure, but suspect the price for a similar component on a Haas mill would cost considerably more. I recently upgraded all 3 axes of my drivers and steppers to the new Series 3 grade components that Tormach just introduced and the price for that was less than $800 with shipping. Would that buy a servo for even one axis on the Haas? My point here is that while you can probably still get components for most used VMCs on the market, it seems likely that you will pay handsomely for the privilege. Heaven help you if a service call is needed. At work we pay over $200 per hour for a service tech on our analytical equipment and I suspect that a CNC tech would charge similarly.

Mike