Pondering Options, need input!

[NavyShooter]

Goodday all,

Well, I posted a thread in the Taig area the other day, presenting a little intro of who I am, and what I'd like to do. Basically, I want to set myself up for future success with a beginner's CNC mill, with intent to upgrade down the road, when I get closer to retirement from the Navy.

So, my initial thoughts were towards learning on a Taig CNC, but in doing some more research and thinking, I'm not sold on that option. The price is about $2400-ish, plus shipping, plus taxes, etc, for a bench-top mini-machine that provides the opportunity to learn, but has limits in both work-space and cutting capability.

I've done a few hours more reading on here, plus some additional research and have been testing my google-fu, and have come up with a couple of other options.

First, the Seig X2.

Pricing on the machine is from a Canadian Distributor:
https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.co...L-p-16298.html
The CNC kit is from CNC Fusion:
CNC Fusion
The 3 Axis CNC drive setup is from Keling
Page Title
And a Gecko 540:
G540 4-Axis Motor Control

Prices:
Seig X2L $799
CNC Kit $579
3 Axis $377.21
Gecko $299

Total $2054.21

Plus tax and shipping which will run up another $4-500-ish, plus a copy of Mach for $149.


Next up would be a Seig SX3:

Same Canadian Distrubutor:
https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.co...3-p-16242.html
CNC kit from CNC Fusion:
CNC Fusion
3 Axis CNC Drive from Keling:
Page Title
And the same Gecko 540:
G540 4-Axis Motor Control

Prices:

Seig SX3 $1499
CNC Kit $599
3 Axis $631
Gecko $299

Total $$3028

Plus tax and shipping which will run another $6-700 (heavier machine, more $$$) plus a copy of Mach for $149.

Considering a Taig CNC Mill package from Soigeneris:

$2404.00

Plus tax and shipping for probably $4-500


I have about a $4,000 budget for this project, so that basically knocks out the SX3, as it's right at the top end leaving no space for additional tooling and software, not to mention it's rather substantial weight would involve me having to build a new section onto my work-bench, which I'm not currently able to do because of the limited space I have...so while the footprint is similar to the X2, the X3's weight is also a no-go for right now.

That leaves me the Taig or the X2.

Of these, I think I preffer the X2, for a couple of reasons.

First, the X2 has an R8 spindle, meaning it's compatible with my existing manual mill tooling.

Second, it doesn't have an aluminium work-surface. Past experience with such on another small mill has left me jaded, I like heavier duty.

So, basically, I'm now leaning towards the X2 as my "affordable" entry-level mini-CNC Mill.

Am I missing anything major here? Are the packages of "stuff" that I've identified all that I need to conduct the upgrade of the manual machine to a CNC?

Are there other considerations I should be taking into account? (I've got spare computers hanging around the house to hook up with...I'm an IT geek too.)

I'm open for input on this, but I think my current choices in a relatively limited market are the X2 or the Taig, are there other options I'm missing?

Thanks,

NavyShooter

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[Fastest1]

The Taig seems to be a good machine according to the users. I would think it really comes down to what you want to make. How big is your largest item you want to machine? What material? Do you plan on production with this machine?

[doorknob]

It looks like you may be "double counting", in that the Keling 3-axis kit includes the following items which essentially duplicate the function of the Gecko G540:

A. 3 pcs KL-4030 Stepper Motor Bipolar driver with heat sink with 125
Microstep Resolution.

E: 1 PC 6 axis Breakout Board for Motion control, Limit Switch,
Emergency Stop, etc

G: 1 PC 5V power supply for breakout board


So, you can reduce the cost of the X2 and X3 packages by either removing the G540 from the calculation, or else by pricing a different package from Keling that does not include the duplicated functionality.

[mhackney]

An X2 with a CNCFusion kit and the Gecko 540 electronics is a great combo. It is not that difficult to build out and having done that, you will have a great understanding of the mechanics and electronics of your machine. That helps a lot in troubleshooting and sets you up to build a bigger machine in the future.

I did exactly this about 18 months ago. The mill is a workhorse, I've made 1000s of parts for my fly reel and reel kit business in brass, aluminum, Delrin and some steel. I am now CNCing a G0704 for its larger capacity. With the experience I gained with the X2, I feel comfortable machining the G0704 mechanicals using Hoss' Phase II conversion plans. I did have the ballscrews machined though.

regards,
Michael

[NavyShooter]

So,

For the Seig X2, the package from Keling negates the need for the Gecko? Same with the X3?

So, that puts the X2's price down to $1755-ish, and the X3 down to $2728.

I'm less interested in the Taig, mostly because it's not R8, and I'd need a whole new set of tooling for it, but also I don't like the aluminium T-slots for clamping.

Hrm.

Mhackney, I've heard many good things about the Gecko (nothing bad in fact from what I've read here so far) so I'm actually tempted to keep the Gecko drive, and pick and choose the parts I'd need from Keling to build up from there. What items do I need in addition to the Gecko, and the three NEMA 23 motors?

Do you use a quick change tool-bit setup on your X2? Seeing the price difference between the X2 and X3 is making me think about that idea as part of the tooling I'd buy.

Brad

[NavyShooter]

Oh, and purpose of this mill is less about production and more about learning.

I have some manual machining background (schooling long ago before joining the Navy, with recent self-taught projects) and see the opportunity that CNC provides in making complex shapes (look at the top of a Browning 1919 bolt for a simple example of a cam slot path that I'd like to be able to mill!) I've been wracking my brain on how to do that sort of thing manually, but there's no good answer, so CNC is the only option.

I have had a few projects I've put off on my manual mill because there is just no way to do it manually, and it's not something I want to take to a CNC shop, because by the time they did a couple of jobs like this for me, I'd be into the project for almost the price of the X2 or a Taig!

Thanks for the help guys, I appreciate it!

NS

[mhackney]

I really think you can't go wrong with the G540 on this machine. Rock solid dependable and very simple to wire up. The simplicity alone makes it worth using. Plus you get a 4th axis if you want to add a rotary table later. And it has outputs and inputs for home/limit switches, spindle speed control, relays, etc. A lot of stuff in a small, pre-wired, and affordable package.

Beside the G540 you need steppers and three steppers. You also need a power supply, cabling, an electrical box to hold the electronics, a parallel cable and (EDIT) DB 9 (/EDIT) connectors to hook the steppers to the G540. See Hoss' great page on X2 conversions and electronics.

I do use the Tormach quick change system and will use it on my new G0704. My X2 is a MicroMark and has an MT-3 taper and the G0704 has R8. Tormach sells MT-3 and R8 holders so it makes it easy and cost effective to use the same holders in each mill. I thought about upgrading my X2 to R8 but can't really justify it now.

I also did do a belt conversion. That was great but not an absolute necessity. I did a few other mods - the Z column brace was by far the best mod I did. Really increases Z rigidity and allows me to cut more, faster, harder!

cheers,
Michael

[NavyShooter]

GeckodiverG540 4 axis kit (one G540 + Four NEMA 23
KL23H2100-35-4B( 1/4” Dual shaft with a flat) 381 oz-in + one
KL-600-48 48V/ 12.5A 115V /230V
power supply): $574.95

This kit?

Page Title

[mhackney]

Do you have immediate plans for 4 axis? I think you'd be best to start with the 3 axis kit and buy the stepper when you need to add the 4th. I use a much smaller stepper on my 4" rotary table, no sense buying more torque than you need.

This was the kit I got:

Gecko Diver G540 3 axis kit (One G540 + Three
NEMA 23 KL23H284-35-4B (1/4” Dual shaft with a flat) 387 oz-in +
one KL-350-48 48V/7.3A 115V /230V power supply: $455.95

Here is my X2 build thread. The CNCFusion kit comes later - around Dec. 2009.

[NavyShooter]

Michael,

I'm up for the mids and reading away on your build thread....the joys of being awake from Midnight to 7 AM with all my equipment operational and nothing to do....

:-)

Brad

[strohkirchw]

PM for you

[mattmark]

hey brad,

what part of canada are you in? my recommendation to throw in is another clone of the Grizzly G0704.. the King kc-20vs.. not sure if $1299 would work.

Power Tools, Woodworking and Metalworking Machines by King Canada

Atlas Machinery in Toronto has them: Atlas:*King Industrial KC-20VS 1 HP Milling and Drilling Machine with Digital Read Out

The machine is pretty solid for it's size and weight.. pretty "trendy" right now.

Only issue i can see is that some of the motors have issues.. getting mine replaced now..

Matt

[NavyShooter]

Hi Matt,

You've got me thinking now.

I'm in the Halifax area, and there is a King dealer in the area, so this bears some thinking for me.

I like the larger table size and work area, it's only 100 pounds more than the X2, all the T-slots are compatible with what I have now...hmmmmm.....

[mattmark]

great, more options are always good. i've never used a x2/x3 mill, but from what a lot of experienced users are saying, it's resonance/"rigidity" is pretty good comparably.

matt

[NavyShooter]

Matt,

To the good, I'm not in a big rush to go out and buy all the bits to do this over the next week or two....if you look at my username (NavyShooter), you could take an (accurate) guess that I'm in the Navy....one of the joys of being in the Navy (YES, CANADA DOES HAVE A NAVY....thanks for thinking that!) is that sometimes I get deployed....like right now. I'm about 1/2 way through a trip, and by about month 5 I want to sort out my options and place my orders on the way home, so that when I get home and start my leave (incidentally, it looks like I'm to be home on the day the kids start school...) I'll have something to keep my busy while I'm chilling for a bit after this trip.

I KNOW that the honey-do list is going to be pretty substantial, but I think I'll be able to get a lot of it done pretty quick, and by the time all the bits for a CNC Mill show up on my doorstep, I'll be able to put a bit of time into building it and running it.

SX-2 or SX-3/G0704 clone is the goal....I'm still leaning towards the SX-2 I think, as it will give me some extra space in the budget for some of the Tormach Tooling system, which I think would be a good idea to add in.

I have to keep in the back of my head that if there's BIG hog cuts I need to make, I do have my B-096/RF-31 mill for those.

Brad

[winegummo]

i know this thread is over a year 1 1/2 years old but i am in the same boat as Navyshooter (no punn intended. lol) where as i am putting together a shopping list for a cnc machine. Unlike navy, i am not a trained machinist but have worked a lathe and mill a small bit. Im just looking for a straight forward outlet for my cad designs. (mostly scooter parts)

the differance is that i was thinking of going the kc-20vs route because i can get one from our local kms tools

would the list that navy has compiled work for the king mill?

thanks in advance and please excuse me if i ask any crazy newbish questions

[NavyShooter]

Hi Winegummo,

You revived a thread from WAAAY Back....and you helped remind me that I need to clear the space in my shop (and schedule) to setup the mill that's still sitting new in the boxes.

Yeah.

I got a taig, and haven't even opened it up yet.

[winegummo]

lol.

i was going to start a fresh thread but all this informations was already here so i figured it made as much sense to just tag along on yours.

hope you dont mind

[PsyKotyk]

I recently got bitten by the CNC bug again, having built a rather large all-aluminium gantry style CNC a few years ago, and enjoying that process. I've come to realize the limits of my oversized design and wanted something that could cut steel.

After looking at a local used 4000lb vertical milling monster, and getting a quote on a tormach pc770, I decided the answer was under my nose all along. My old X2 clone will be converted to CNC, so I can retain all my tooling and breath some new life into my old investment.

I had to think long and hard about whether I would need more table, or more spindle power, and for the moment, the answer is no. If that answer changes in the future, then I will buy something bigger, convert it to CNC and sell the X2.

I no longer believe in building from scratch (aside from educational experience). The price of rails and ballscrew and a spindle and everything else in-between is too high. You could easily get a new Tormach with some accessories.

Anyway, that was my thought process.

Cheers