High Speed Spindle for SIEG X2 Mill - getting technical - Page 4


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Thread: High Speed Spindle for SIEG X2 Mill - getting technical

  1. #37
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    Default Minitech mystery machine-

    Mark,

    If what finance says is correct, you are left with no other choice than to open up the controller box and look at the circuit board. Hopefully you will find a name on it, maybe also a model number, and you can "Google" it to get information on the internet.

    Then maybe you can get the manual. Just be sure to unplug it first and groung yourself by keeping one hand on the metal of the box, or by not touching anything- basically the same static electricity precautions you would have while working on your PC.

    If you cannot fins a name - you can take a good picture of it and post it on this thread- or start a new one.

    Rustfinger.



  2. #38
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    Default Minitech Does support their machines

    Quote Originally Posted by finance View Post
    Hi Mark,
    MiniTech only sell the base, manual machine. What you have is one that has been modified by someone.
    You don't need 'minitech drivers' there is no such thing. So the Minitech guys, even though they are very helpful, cannot help you at all.

    Get onto the Artsoft Mach3 site (http://www.machsupport.com) and check out their tutorials, they will give you information on how to set Mach3 up and also info on setting up the port pins etc.

    If your steppers are locking up when you have power to the drivers then it sounds like you're half way there, you just need to get the PC/Mach3/Driver interface working - which should not be too hard (I note you are a complete noob, but trust me) .
    Whatever you do, do not rush into this, take the time to ask as many questions as it takes before you know what you are doing or you may fry your driver(s) and/or PC.

    What driver(s) do you have to drive the stepper motors (I'm assuming they are steppers and not servo motors). Some common ones are Xylotex and Gecko - or in your case someone may have built a driver from an Oatley Electronics kit (check out www.oatleyelectronics.com and look for stepper motors/kits).

    Mach3 does some things that Windows doesn't know about, so look on the Artsoft web site for instructions about optimising XP to let Mach3 run correctly - if you have other things running that clash with Mach3 Windows won't know what is going on. Basically you can't have anything else (even a screen saver) running while you have Mach3 running, it's best to have a dedicated PC for Mach3 (ie don't use the PC for anything else). Also check out the minimum PC requirements for running Mach3, you'll find that on the Artsoft site too.

    Getting back to your question, it sounds like XP has detected that signals are getting to the PC from the driver board(s) and thinks you have some sort of printer attached, this indicates that it may require rewiring the connection between driver and parallel cable - one thing to check is that you have a straight through parallel cable with all pins connected, some cables don't have all wires connected and some cross a wire or two getting from one end to the other. Check for continuity with a multimeter (set on Ohms) between pin one of one end to pin one of the other end - do that for all pins, you should see zero Ohms in each case - if you don't, get another cable.
    You will need to get info from the driver maker to be sure that the connections to the parallel cable are correct, if they are OK and your cable is OK then it should be easy to set up the port pins in Mach3 - and away you go.

    Good luck and Cheers,
    Dave.


    drivers
    I beg to differ. Yuo are wrong, everything on this mill is minitech.
    Jack has contatced me everyday since i posted at the forum for mach 3 software. Art tried to help, but had no idea about Jack's machines.


    Jack walked me throuhg everything and after trouble shooting, we have come to realize that the board was bad.

    FYI the board says Mini tech right on it.

    After configuring the pins, it came down to me isolating the drives whith each motor..

    There was no one at the mach 3 forum that was of any help , with the exception Of Jack from Minitech.

    Art tried to help, but had no idea where the problem could have been..

    The original problem was in the software.
    Jack researched it for me and emailed me the information , and finally after days of deliberating we unchecked all of the active lows to all the axis and bingo we had a response.


    Jack offered to salvage a board from an older machine.

    I've decided that i'm just going to upgrade to a bipolar controller and higher torque motors.

    If anyone is inteested, These motors are the oriiginal and have been tested. I've have no idea what the holding torque is, but they are all equal and in excellent condition
    They are unipolar, six wire and i'll let them go real cheap.


    If anyone needs help with an older minitech, i'm sure Jack will be more than happy to hear from you. Just email him.
    Mark



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    Default

    Back to possible motors to drive spindles, there are some amazing brushless DC "outrunner" motors designed to replace the old-fashioned gasoline engines on really large model airplanes - as in 25 - 30+ pound model airplanes! These motors really crank out an amazing amount of power, and being brushless they have PWM speed controls that can be used manually or with Mach3 or other software with PWM capability. They come in any number of sizes, and are all under a hundred bucks or so except for the really big ones. They also only weigh a few ounces!

    I believe this is the same type of motor Wolfgang engineering uses on thier highest-end spindles.

    I am using one to build a new spindle drive to replace an NSK Astro unit, as I don't want to spring for that kind of hardware again!

    Has anybody else had experience with these as well?



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    Red face There are TWO MiniTechs!

    Well,
    I'm glad that you seem to have sorted out your problem.

    For everyone's info, there is a bunch in Australia called MiniTech - it was them I thought gone4pepsi was referring to - I was unaware he is in the USA and he obviously didn't know I'm in Australia.

    Check out www.minitech.com.au they are excellent to buy from/deal with.

    Cheers,
    Dave.

    Quote Originally Posted by gone4pepsi View Post
    I beg to differ. Yuo are wrong, everything on this mill is minitech.
    Jack has contatced me everyday since i posted at the forum for mach 3 software. Art tried to help, but had no idea about Jack's machines.


    Jack walked me throuhg everything and after trouble shooting, we have come to realize that the board was bad.

    FYI the board says Mini tech right on it.Mark




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    Default

    If the noise is not a real problem and you have an adequate air supply, look at the Sioux pencil die grinders, # 5978A (54K rpm) and # 5979A (70K rpm). the 5978A is the one Sherline uses in their high speed head.

    Fred
    The Anodizer



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    Quote Originally Posted by Stepper Monkey View Post
    Back to possible motors to drive spindles, there are some amazing brushless DC "outrunner" motors designed to replace the old-fashioned gasoline engines on really large model airplanes - as in 25 - 30+ pound model airplanes! These motors really crank out an amazing amount of power, and being brushless they have PWM speed controls that can be used manually or with Mach3 or other software with PWM capability. They come in any number of sizes, and are all under a hundred bucks or so except for the really big ones. They also only weigh a few ounces!

    I believe this is the same type of motor Wolfgang engineering uses on thier highest-end spindles.

    I am using one to build a new spindle drive to replace an NSK Astro unit, as I don't want to spring for that kind of hardware again!

    Has anybody else had experience with these as well?
    Little late of a reply, but I have considered outrunner motors.. One huge problem is that they cannot get rid of heat when they are at rest.. Airplanes give access to tremendous amounts of airflow, a CNC, however...

    Another problem is their tiny 2mm-3mm shafts. Finally, the fact that the outer-rotor spins creates problems with vibrations. The only good way is to use inner rotor brushless motors, which are hard to find with a large enough shaft diameter. You could use a frameless brushless motor from Danaher Motion, but they're damn expensive.

    Steve



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    Default Motors for engraving

    Quote Originally Posted by whelen View Post

    Just brain storming, why can't a dc servo motor be used?

    Whelen
    DC servo motors are brush motors. That implies limited life at high speed.

    There are many either 3-phase 400 Hz aircraft typr motors or BLDC (Brushless DC) motors which should have no brush life issues and may be reasonable choices.

    High frequency drive (e.g. well above 60 Hz) tends to result in a lighter, higher speed motor.

    Dave



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    Little late of a reply, but I have considered outrunner motors.. One huge problem is that they cannot get rid of heat when they are at rest.. Airplanes give access to tremendous amounts of airflow, a CNC, however...

    Another problem is their tiny 2mm-3mm shafts. Finally, the fact that the outer-rotor spins creates problems with vibrations. The only good way is to use inner rotor brushless motors, which are hard to find with a large enough shaft diameter. You could use a frameless brushless motor from Danaher Motion, but they're damn expensive.

    Steve
    I strongly agree about heat dissipation problem, but some motors are coming with water cooling units. For most of hi quality inrunners are pretty easy to fit some homemade water cooling jaket.
    Another realy BIG problem - a very BIG current consumtion. You PSU should be ready to provide from 30A(min) till up to 200A at 12 - 36 VDC.

    Another problem is their tiny 2mm-3mm shafts
    5 & more mm are avaible.

    Look at
    HTML Code:
    www.kontronik.com
    &
    HTML Code:
    www.neumotors.com
    brushless inrunners and electronic speed controllers. I think that these are the best for diy hi speed spindles. Now I`m planing to build one with
    such motor.



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    Tolik,

    I don't really have a problem with cooling of inrunners, that's not very difficult. For the savings in comparison to a commercial precision spindle motor, you can afford watercool it without much effort. I didn't know these existed, it is starting to make me think

    I would use a car battery charger for the supply. Any other option requires rewinding the motor, then finding a decent high frequency drive. I don't think most VFDs can run that high.

    I would be very grateful if you kept me in the loop of your spindle progress. You've gotten me to consider doing my own, since I didn't know that they existed as inrunners. Perhaps a good spindle setup would be a set of preloaded angular contacts at one end, the rotor magnets, then a smaller rear radial bearing. This might make assembly possible. Disassembling the magnets might not be worth it..

    Direct drive is the only way that I would put forth effort for a spindle. I have a 400W brushless motor taken apart that I was considering converting from an 8-pole to a 2-pole for higher speeds, but it is hard to find magnets I know will work.

    I'm actually designing a fully magnetic-bearing based spindle for my degree project this year. I was gearing it for the DIY community since it will be relatively inexpensive compared to commercial units. But, you would need a lathe and milling machine to make it.. Also, the circuitboard will be quite expensive. But, it will last a long time without wearing out and will be very accurate.

    Steve

    Steve
    "Drink your school, stay in drugs, and don't do milk!"


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    Scubasteve 911,

    I didn't know these existed, it is starting to make me think
    Here is example of water stuff from NEU MOTORS - less than 20 USD (without shipping) & you are ready to go with more than 2.1 cont / 3.3 max (30 second) KILOWATT, & rich up to 60 000 Rpm with NEU 1527 series motor.

    I would use a car battery charger for the supply.
    For 400 Watt motor should be enough. I tested the motor like this - 540W/5200 RPM/V, connected to my PC SMPSU 12V rail. It was working fine. With your charger that able to provide 14.4 - 16V will be even better.

    Direct drive is the only way that I would put forth effort for a spindle.
    Strongly agree with you - this is the best possible way.

    But, you would need a lathe and milling machine to make it..
    I need to talk with my boss. If he will allow me, I`ll use one of CNC lathes / mills at my work. The thing I learned : for all DIY activitys, industrial stuff is the best choice... But $$$

    Also, the circuitboard will be quite expensive.
    If you about motor controller - I`m not shure. 100A/ up to 40V controller will cost around $120...150 including delivery.
    In addition, to control the controller you will need some pulse modulator. The signal used to control ESC is a square pulses 70-220 mS length, 50 pulses per second. I already have some schematics of this stuff, so just ask me if you interesting. Parts for modulator at any local store should cost less than $10 for analog, or $15-40 for PIC based project.
    Now I`m trying to design more advanced controlling unit, that will able to work with spin/RPM encoder (& even may be work with PC) , to provide :
    A - stable amount of RPM (to eliminate RPM drop when tool touching the part, or if PSU/mains voltage changed)
    B - feedback to PC/CNC controller to allow change RPM for each cut/job, & to make possible to use G96, G97 commands.

    I would be very grateful if you kept me in the loop of your spindle progress.
    I`ll be happy to share any information, but I need a time to complete this project. Especially electronic part.

    Now I have one question.
    Look at this ER 8 3/8" STRAIGHT SHANK COLLET EXTENSION . Is it possible to fit it to 3/8 ID bearings without additional tooling ? Anybody tried to do this, and what are you experience or suggestions ?



  11. #47
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    Hi,

    The circuitboard expense I was referring to was the one I am designing to control the spindle. This includes the magnetic bearings, sensor-feedback loop, position loop, current control loop, and the pwm for the motors and bearings. It's a 6-layer PCB and will have about 400$ in parts on it.

    You can rig up a basic velocity loop with hall-effect feedback and output the standard pwm to interface with the driver very easily. I would prefer using a PSoC microcontroller since they're extremely easy and quite powerful.

    For the ER collet system with the 3/8" shank, I can't think of an easy way to use it. Sure, you can load some 3/8" ID bearings into an open-ended housing, then loctite the ID of the bearings after a bit of roughing up, but I am not sure how reliable that is. Furthermore, how would you couple the motor? I've heard of some inline couplings that could work with a motor, but I'm not a fan of them. The motor should be in between these bearings, so, I don't see how that is easily implemented. You also need a method to preload these to minimize axial and radial play, not sure how you'd do this either.

    Steve

    Steve
    "Drink your school, stay in drugs, and don't do milk!"


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    Hi,

    You can rig up a basic velocity loop with hall-effect feedback and output the standard pwm to interface with the driver very easily.
    I`m prefer the optical sensor (for speeds below 40-60K RPM), but your idea seems to be good also.

    Thank`s for you sharing your look to the collet system. I considered that I`ll
    need to make my own shaft that should to be be precicely fitted to ID of bearings. Loctite is useless here. Some later I`ll plase here my entry design.
    Can you to read Solidworks part & assembely files ?



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High Speed Spindle for SIEG X2 Mill - getting technical
High Speed Spindle for SIEG X2 Mill - getting technical