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  1. #1
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    Default Advise on direction

    Artist hobbist, looking to branch into small run manufacturing.

    Ok so i am a emerging sculpture artist, and i have a 3d vector art back ground.
    right now i make everything pretty much by hand and tools, be it sculpting in clay, carving shaping eva foam or polystyrene.

    From there i tend to cast and make molds then pour and fill molds pop out final piece paint and display sell leave to gather dust.

    jumping in and getting a smallish hobby cnc router Chinese or otherwise doesn't phase me. Its bridging the new language gap. As some of the terms i haven't heard before. As well is the order /process so to speak is new.

    all i can do is say what i am trying to do. And hope one of you is able to say yep yep got it ok you need to do this learn that then do that and push print. Basically.

    ok so i have a 3d background, i grew up making maps and mods for video games, games like warcraft, C&c franchise. Then dukenukem 3d came out. I began here and latter when half,life came out i moved away from just making maps to making item to populate the maps. So began 3d / vector art phase. I have used some of these programs over the years.
    milkshape, rhino, coraldraw, photoshop, 3dsmax, blender, but my bread and butter go to is maya. But i have also dabbled in a few other programs at least generally to save or modify file types then export and convert so on bring them to maya and generally work on then them there.

    another thing i have done is used a xbox kinetic to 3d scan things, but this was very early on in 3d scanning development and it was a rather crappy piece of software that the models canned needed more post production than it was worth.

    so what i need to be able to do and i am highly guessing its possible.

    i need to make model in maya preferable. Export or convert to the chinese 6090 i am still yet to buy and have said model routed

    what i dont want to have to do is sit there and program the g code bit by bit from start to finish on all its cutting routes. as i need that in my life like i need a ball pint hammer to the head. I am trying to save time here and less wastage, with fewer flaws. Not lose time on having to hand write out pages of g code for a cutting path. I need a process thats smart enough, quick, efficient and lazy enough to do it its self. E.g drag and drop here change a few integers print.

    now thats all well and good for small items or one sided item that fit on the bed. But the next process i need a bit of help with is say flipping a piece and zeroing it back in again. Say i was cncing a coin. Id put a bit of copper down, it would carve engrave one side. Done its cut the edge out half way. When it comes time to flip the copper plate and get the machine to do the second half of say the coin how do i get said random chinese machine to zero the work space and know were it needs to cut for the second half of the coin to match up exactly with the first half. Are these two separate cutting jobs or is it smart enough pause long enough for me to flip the work. Then it zeros on again. Or is it like primitive were id need a perfect size sheet with the table marked and a perfect 3d cutting job for both sides and when i flip and clamp pray it all matches up.

    this leads onto my next issue. Some of the art ill be making will be much bigger than the cutting bed. Not so much the area but the height or z axis. Most bench to machines are around the 100-150mm mark. Which i can work with if able to do layers. Again, is this as easy as adjusting a few things in the export settings. Or am i going to have to slice the model up and export a job for each layer. Then how do i maintain continuity of size shape across the board. E.g i print a pyramid in layers. I start printing the base layer first it fills the work area. But when i start printing the second layer which should be smaller, is it going to try and blow it up to fill the work area again. Small issues like this.

    next i want to see if any one knows of a way of accurately 3d scanning things and stream line the process to get the cnc router to print. E.g i get old mate to stand there. I use x box kinetic to scan him. Out puts a 3d model, into vectors, which i can then blow up or shrink and slice it layers and distribute into cutting jobs for the machine. Then i take the slices out glue them together and old mate can have a life size model of him self plus a mini version of him self in high end detail.

    finally i need a hand with and nuances or issues going from material. Example most of my works going to be out of eva foam. The machines gunna eat it like crazy. The depth and cutting speed for rough cutting could prolly be max. Its going to provide very littler resistance to the spindle, the bit, the frame or the servos. But when i told old mate about it. He wants it to cut out steel well aluminum. Which i know would need to have it slowed down more torque. A different bit like carbides fine point duel fluted and do a lot of many slow passes dropping down like half a mill each time. With water cooling spindle and cutting past jetted.
    so i know a thing or two but would need to be adjusted every now and again. So i pretty much looking for a cnc for dummies guide in this area. But thats ok as old mate might want to do ally, most my works in foam, but id also like to maybe make some table top miniature terrain out of wood or like car bog, the odd relief out of wood. Hell if i can take a chunk of aluminum block and carve a perfectly mating two part mold out of that. id want to keep or use the mold for a near infinite amount of runs other than having to make a new plaster backing for my silicon molds every 50 odd runs or when i crack it, it drop it, that would be amazing. Old mate can get his suit of armor, mum can get her plastic signage for her caravan and life goes on.

    the machine specs i am looking at are 2.2kw water cooled spindle water jet and bed to handle ally jobs, accuracy less than a mill to handle those fine jobs, detachable vacuum for those foam jobs. No one wants hot pink foam from ass hole to breakfast, like that **** gets everywhere, hand dremeling the crap is crazy, ill sit there carving a piece for a few hours if its blue foam i walk out looking like a smurf. 60x90 work area basically the largest one i can put on a bench without it needing its own subframe that would then stand in the middle of the work shop taking up space next to the pool table. I dont know if i need a dsp controller or if i can do it all on the computer, i have seen dsp controllers built into the controller and circuit board box, which seams like a better option than losing a dsp remote or having the kids run off with it. Usb or SD card reading jobs would be a nice option that way i am not going back and fourth with a lap top or sticking a computer out in a rickety shed full of spiders and bugs.

    what i am kinda hoping is you guys can say have you ever heard of this program, its exactly like maya shouldnt take to long to learn, you can even import ya old maya files into it, this plugin talks to 3d scanners heres a download link. When you export the job you can drag and drop, drop down menu the cutting path, which you can set multiple speeds, and depths, as well as pauses with beep or email sms notification to change or flip the work piece. The machine will easy zero on by its self or with this sensor bit. The cutting menu even has a bunch of preset options that sets speed torque depth for a range of different materials. You just need to put in the recommended bit in. Or once you understand it you can add custom options in. You will need a cnc machine that understand this recommended programs file type. If not you might be able to find a converter here at this link. This type of bits best for cutting ally, this ones best for foam/plastic, this ones good for stone or grit. This ones good for wood. Oh and send us pics on what you have made.

    ^i know rite wishful thinking, any help will do guys.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Advise on direction

    Quote Originally Posted by Nex17 View Post
    Artist hobbist, looking to branch into small run manufacturing.

    Ok so i am a emerging sculpture artist, and i have a 3d vector art back ground.
    right now i make everything pretty much by hand and tools, be it sculpting in clay, carving shaping eva foam or polystyrene.

    From there i tend to cast and make molds then pour and fill molds pop out final piece paint and display sell leave to gather dust.

    jumping in and getting a smallish hobby cnc router Chinese or otherwise doesn't phase me. Its bridging the new language gap. As some of the terms i haven't heard before. As well is the order /process so to speak is new.

    all i can do is say what i am trying to do. And hope one of you is able to say yep yep got it ok you need to do this learn that then do that and push print. Basically.

    ok so i have a 3d background, i grew up making maps and mods for video games, games like warcraft, C&c franchise. Then dukenukem 3d came out. I began here and latter when half,life came out i moved away from just making maps to making item to populate the maps. So began 3d / vector art phase. I have used some of these programs over the years.
    milkshape, rhino, coraldraw, photoshop, 3dsmax, blender, but my bread and butter go to is maya. But i have also dabbled in a few other programs at least generally to save or modify file types then export and convert so on bring them to maya and generally work on then them there.

    another thing i have done is used a xbox kinetic to 3d scan things, but this was very early on in 3d scanning development and it was a rather crappy piece of software that the models canned needed more post production than it was worth.

    so what i need to be able to do and i am highly guessing its possible.

    [Sure, it's possible. It sounds like you're ahead of most people getting started with this, since you've got a background in 3D modeling.]

    i need to make model in maya preferable. Export or convert to the chinese 6090 i am still yet to buy and have said model routed

    [You don't export to the machine, you export from Maya to STL. You need a CAM program to analyze the mesh, take your inputs into consideration, and output a G-code file the machine can read.]

    what i dont want to have to do is sit there and program the g code bit by bit from start to finish on all its cutting routes. as i need that in my life like i need a ball pint hammer to the head. I am trying to save time here and less wastage, with fewer flaws. Not lose time on having to hand write out pages of g code for a cutting path. I need a process thats smart enough, quick, efficient and lazy enough to do it its self. E.g drag and drop here change a few integers print.

    now thats all well and good for small items or one sided item that fit on the bed. But the next process i need a bit of help with is say flipping a piece and zeroing it back in again. Say i was cncing a coin. Id put a bit of copper down, it would carve engrave one side. Done its cut the edge out half way. When it comes time to flip the copper plate and get the machine to do the second half of say the coin how do i get said random chinese machine to zero the work space and know were it needs to cut for the second half of the coin to match up exactly with the first half. Are these two separate cutting jobs or is it smart enough pause long enough for me to flip the work. Then it zeros on again. Or is it like primitive were id need a perfect size sheet with the table marked and a perfect 3d cutting job for both sides and when i flip and clamp pray it all matches up.

    [The CAM program I'd suggest for you is DeskProto; it's pretty simple to use and has advanced features like a 2-side wizard that deals with your flipping issue. The hobbyist version is quite reasonably priced, and we offer a discount.]

    this leads onto my next issue. Some of the art ill be making will be much bigger than the cutting bed. Not so much the area but the height or z axis. Most bench to machines are around the 100-150mm mark. Which i can work with if able to do layers. Again, is this as easy as adjusting a few things in the export settings. Or am i going to have to slice the model up and export a job for each layer. Then how do i maintain continuity of size shape across the board. E.g i print a pyramid in layers. I start printing the base layer first it fills the work area. But when i start printing the second layer which should be smaller, is it going to try and blow it up to fill the work area again. Small issues like this.

    [Just keep everything the same size; don't blow it up.]

    next i want to see if any one knows of a way of accurately 3d scanning things and stream line the process to get the cnc router to print. E.g i get old mate to stand there. I use x box kinetic to scan him. Out puts a 3d model, into vectors, which i can then blow up or shrink and slice it layers and distribute into cutting jobs for the machine. Then i take the slices out glue them together and old mate can have a life size model of him self plus a mini version of him self in high end detail.

    [Yes, but current 3D scanners that get good detail are still expensive.]

    finally i need a hand with and nuances or issues going from material. Example most of my works going to be out of eva foam. The machines gunna eat it like crazy. The depth and cutting speed for rough cutting could prolly be max. Its going to provide very littler resistance to the spindle, the bit, the frame or the servos. But when i told old mate about it. He wants it to cut out steel well aluminum. Which i know would need to have it slowed down more torque. A different bit like carbides fine point duel fluted and do a lot of many slow passes dropping down like half a mill each time. With water cooling spindle and cutting past jetted.

    [Foam should work okay on your Chinese router. Aluminum will work less well, if at all, and forget about steel unless you get a real mill.]

    so i know a thing or two but would need to be adjusted every now and again. So i pretty much looking for a cnc for dummies guide in this area. But thats ok as old mate might want to do ally, most my works in foam, but id also like to maybe make some table top miniature terrain out of wood or like car bog, the odd relief out of wood. Hell if i can take a chunk of aluminum block and carve a perfectly mating two part mold out of that. id want to keep or use the mold for a near infinite amount of runs other than having to make a new plaster backing for my silicon molds every 50 odd runs or when i crack it, it drop it, that would be amazing. Old mate can get his suit of armor, mum can get her plastic signage for her caravan and life goes on.

    [You and your mum will be fine; tell your mate to get a mill; you can borrow it to make your molds.]

    the machine specs i am looking at are 2.2kw water cooled spindle water jet and bed to handle ally jobs, accuracy less than a mill to handle those fine jobs, detachable vacuum for those foam jobs. No one wants hot pink foam from ass hole to breakfast, like that **** gets everywhere, hand dremeling the crap is crazy, ill sit there carving a piece for a few hours if its blue foam i walk out looking like a smurf.

    [If you think the Dremel makes a mess, wait until you're cutting foam with an automatic tool...]

    60x90 work area basically the largest one i can put on a bench without it needing its own subframe that would then stand in the middle of the work shop taking up space next to the pool table. I dont know if i need a dsp controller or if i can do it all on the computer, i have seen dsp controllers built into the controller and circuit board box, which seams like a better option than losing a dsp remote or having the kids run off with it. Usb or SD card reading jobs would be a nice option that way i am not going back and fourth with a lap top or sticking a computer out in a rickety shed full of spiders and bugs.

    [The spiders and bugs won't mind. Use a junk computer for the mill, as long as it has a parallel port.]

    what i am kinda hoping is you guys can say have you ever heard of this program, its exactly like maya shouldnt take to long to learn, you can even import ya old maya files into it, this plugin talks to 3d scanners heres a download link. When you export the job you can drag and drop, drop down menu the cutting path, which you can set multiple speeds, and depths, as well as pauses with beep or email sms notification to change or flip the work piece. The machine will easy zero on by its self or with this sensor bit. The cutting menu even has a bunch of preset options that sets speed torque depth for a range of different materials. You just need to put in the recommended bit in. Or once you understand it you can add custom options in. You will need a cnc machine that understand this recommended programs file type. If not you might be able to find a converter here at this link. This type of bits best for cutting ally, this ones best for foam/plastic, this ones good for stone or grit. This ones good for wood. Oh and send us pics on what you have made.

    ^i know rite wishful thinking, any help will do guys.
    [I haven't seen that program you're talking about - can you send us a link?]

    Andrew Werby
    computersculpture.com

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: Advise on direction

    Quote Originally Posted by Nex17 View Post
    Artist hobbist, looking to branch into small run manufacturing.

    Ok so i am a emerging sculpture artist, and i have a 3d vector art back ground.
    right now i make everything pretty much by hand and tools, be it sculpting in clay, carving shaping eva foam or polystyrene.

    From there i tend to cast and make molds then pour and fill molds pop out final piece paint and display sell leave to gather dust.
    I am wondering if a cnc router is the correct tool for you. Some kind of 3d printer may be a better choice. There are filaments that dissolve in water, and I wonder if that could be a better medium to use to make your molds.

    For the aluminum work you mentioned, perhaps you should consider a mill conversion instead.



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    Default Re: Advise on direction

    Thank you awerby
    [Sure, it's possible. It sounds like you're ahead of most people getting started with this, since you've got a background in 3D modeling.] cheers i am a bit rust but its all still up there some were


    [You don't export to the machine, you export from Maya to STL. You need a CAM program to analyze the mesh, take your inputs into consideration, and output a G-code file the machine can read.] i figured i dont just click print but i didnt knowthe industry standard term "CAM"


    [The CAM program I'd suggest for you is DeskProto; it's pretty simple to use and has advanced features like a 2-side wizard that deals with your flipping issue. The hobbyist version is quite reasonably priced, and we offer a discount.]
    This program pretty much has everything i think ill ever need. Just hoping the machine i choose and it talk well together.


    [Just keep everything the same size; don't blow it up.] yeah after watching the tutorials i completely understand how it works now


    [Yes, but current 3D scanners that get good detail are still expensive.] yeah true, a future investment maybe


    [Foam should work okay on your Chinese router. Aluminum will work less well, if at all, and forget about steel unless you get a real mill.]rgr


    [You and your mum will be fine; tell your mate to get a mill; you can borrow it to make your molds.]
    Eh true


    [If you think the Dremel makes a mess, wait until you're cutting foam with an automatic tool...]
    Well the difference being i can build a vacum line for it or seal it all in a sound proof box. The other bonus i dont have to be there sitting right in the middle of it while i makes that mess, i could be out fishing.


    [The spiders and bugs won't mind. Use a junk computer for the mill, as long as it has a parallel port.]
    Does DeskProto only talk or detect cnc routers from the parallel port?, i was looking at a machine with usb?

    Hey nic77

    [I am wondering if a cnc router is the correct tool for you. Some kind of 3d printer may be a better choice. There are filaments that dissolve in water, and I wonder if that could be a better medium to use to make your molds.


    For the aluminum work you mentioned, perhaps you should consider a mill conversion instead.]

    well a 3d printer would be nice they tend to have such a tiny work are, alot of the work i do is pretty large. Also the cnc i can feed it foam to make the prototype if that holds up i can feed it wood or nylon or even a slab of clay i am guessing to make the master. But if some one wants a litteral one off i can make that also. Or if they want a display piece i can make that also out of wood or plastic depending on their needs or wants. Or my own.

    the idea behind the dryed clay slabbs is no wastage, the foam thats kind a nessacary evil, but even then if i use a vacum system with it to catch all the foam particals i can use it as a filler or bulking agent in with my silicon. To reduce the over all requied amount of silicon in the molds so instead of making a silicon mold that uses say 1litre of silicon when its about $90 a kilo. Instead i can get away with mixxing 75% of the mix with scrap foam particals and mix them well with a tiny amount of silicon before skinning then filling the mold. Only using 250ml of silicon and i get a few more mods for my $90

    the clay slabs and clay dust i vac off i dump in a bucket of water i pour another slab in 4-5 days its ready to go through the machine again. Along with the clay the machine cut out, that i just made a mold off of. And have scraped out of and cleaned out of the silicon mold. This way my clay wastage is minimal, like pretty much what ever gets stuck under my nails hand cleaning buckets out. I am using 75% less silicon, my foam wastage is minimised as i am puting more that one job through at once, and all the wasted particals are now a bulking agent. Even if the machine does do ally, the excess from that i can smelt back down. The only thing thats prolly going to suck is the waste from mums acrylic carvan sign. But thats just one job. And i am sure i can find use for some plastic particals.

    if i go the 3d printer option i am kinda limited to making things out of various grades of plastic. Which means buying filliment. At best id also look into buying a filliment extruder or making one then trying to make my own filliment this could be fun but not to sure on the total waste or how many times i can recyle plastic through a filliment extruder before it deteriorates to much to recycle any more.

    Baring in mind i am going to need to save as much money as i can to cover the cost of the machine and materials before i can a start saving from the profit to buy a second machine incase the first one breaks down or dies. So if i am making things that i sell for say $15 a pop and $12 is in materials, packing, marketing, insurance, labour. So on and my proffit is $3 ill need to sell 1000 of them before my machine breaks even. Then another 1000 to buy a second machine. If the first one hasnt died before then. The bonus is with the 6090 is i can pop about 60-80 items from the smaller scale out at once. Or about 4 of my larger works out and sell them from any were between $80-300 depending on detail, complexity, and my own artistic IP



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    Default Re: Advise on direction

    To the Sculptor,
    Just create and "own" the 3D cad data model.
    This drives all subsequent processes,
    Think of the 3D model as simply a set of geometry as is the score of a symphony.
    The orchestra is the machine you choose to play/perform the Gcode
    which follows the geometry model of which is the creation you want.
    Skip the machine and concentrate on the model of the sculpture which is the creative part.
    These machines cannot do anything other than what you want them to do,
    The machines are easily found idle.

    Been doing this too long


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    Default Re: Advise on direction

    Bostosh very true, which is why i like both process, i can sit and do maya for hours on end but after months of it my idle hands need somthing else. So i sculpt in clay. Or what have you. I hope you can see with the system the specs the desires i can now see and understand that it will do. I can go back and foryh between the two. I can 3d vector, or i can clay. And i can combine both. Be it scanning a clay sculpt then adding more via digital 3d or i can router clay then go in and hand sculpt. Its brilliant.

    at least this way i will never be sitting in a whirl wind of microscopic foam particals that are bassiccaly asbestos for 3-4 hours at a timy for a mini of basic item



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