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    Default Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    G'day all,
    This is my first post on a CNC forum and I'm keen to hear any opinions that members may have in regards to getting into CNC machining. I'm a qualified toolmaker and been in the game for 20years and can hold my own in a toolroom / machine shop but I have zero experience with CNC's.
    I currently run my own business in Western Sydney with conventional centre lathes and a bridgeport style knee mill as well as a few other machines and would like to take advantage of what a CNC machine can offer by way of limited runs of small part production for a niche industry that I service. Also for complex one off custom parts etc. I mainly work with toolsteels.
    I'm not interested in cheap and nasty but am not ready to spend 100K + on something I have no knowledge in.
    I suppose I would be looking in the $15000 > $40000 range and would probably start with a 3-4 Axis mill or CNC lathe.
    I have been speaking to an Australian distributor of Tormach machines and am showing interest in something like the PCNC 1100 packages. I was directed to download a free trial of Fusion 360 CAD / CAM software which I have done.
    I have limited 2D AutoCAD experience and 3D CAD is new to me but I'm hoping I'll be able to get my head around enough of it to be able to put a job together myself. I have never used a CAM program and would need to learn everything from the beginning. There is a lot I can get out of online tutorials but I know I'd do much better getting in touch with somebody (paid or otherwise) that would be able to demonstrate these concepts. I would also like to be able to work through G-Code enough to make a change on the run before I even contemplate a purchase of any machine.
    My main questions are:
    1. What are your thoughts on machines? Suppliers? Retrofitters of older machines?
    2. What are your thoughts on the CAD / CAM program.
    3. Anything else to point me in the right direction in terms of getting educated etc.

    Look forward to your comments.
    Jeff.

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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Welcome to the Zone from another Aussie. I probably can't be that much help as a self taught machinist who has spent the last 12 months building his own CNC plasma machine. I have never used it but I think Fusion 360 is a good choice as it includes a CAM package and its free for non commercial use. Other (expensive) options are Inventor and Solidworks. Another might be Onshape which is cloud based.

    I'd like to have a go with a retrofit using LInuxCNC but I don't have the room and Sydney is a bit to far from Brisbane!

    Rod Webster
    www.vmn.com.au


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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by rodw View Post
    Welcome to the Zone from another Aussie. I probably can't be that much help as a self taught machinist who has spent the last 12 months building his own CNC plasma machine. I have never used it but I think Fusion 360 is a good choice as it includes a CAM package and its free for non commercial use. Other (expensive) options are Inventor and Solidworks. Another might be Onshape which is cloud based.

    I'd like to have a go with a retrofit using LInuxCNC but I don't have the room and Sydney is a bit to far from Brisbane!
    Thanks for the reply. Yeah even at full price Fusion 360 is still hell of a lot cheaper than competitors and seems to look the goods to a newbie like myself. It is what the Tormach dealer recommended.
    Good luck with your Plasma cutter, I thought about trying to build one but I have too many projects already.
    Cheers,
    Jeff.



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Whether the Tormach is good enough to handle toolsteels is an open question. Do you mean annealed tool steel or hard HSS? Well, whether it can handle them at an economic speed and accuracy is really the Q.
    A 4-axis mill would be very attractive, unless you are mainly doing lathe work. But for tool steel, not a cheap Chinese machine, PLEASE!

    What machine? Well, what working volume are you looking for?

    PCNC 1100 : well, dovetails are a little last-century imho. To be sure, if you are looking at a machine with a 2 m x 1 m working space (for steel) you may have little choice, but the PCNC 1100 is not that big. R8 clamping - really? OK, they can convert to TTS/BT30, but really ... I suspect that you could do better.

    CAD/CAM - I am known to be biased. I do my CAD in my head, record it on a 2D package (Autosketch), and I write my own g-code. For the things I am doing, (like machining 10 units in parallel)I just cannot see any affordable CAM package being able to compete. However, that means programming in g-code - which is NOT hard. Planning the cutting sequence is the more important bit.

    Where in Western Sydney?

    Cheers
    Roger
    Sydney



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    [QUOTE=

    Where in Western Sydney?

    Cheers
    Roger
    Sydney[/QUOTE]

    Penrith way mate.
    Thanks for giving me some more to think about.



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Well if you have 20 years on your badge on cutting or shaping metals using manual machine tools I guess it`s very easy for you to learn on the CNC side, number one - because you already know how hard the material with just a test plunge of the spindle, number two - you`re too familiar already on the movement / speed of the bit on it`s optimum yet long lasting depth cut, those are the things so crucial most CNC programmers fail, CNC is just automating the things you do on a manual machine, the strength of materials are the same, I do advise you start with a small CNC just for coding practice to minimize the cost if accidents happen, just like a manual machine you learn from your mistakes, coding with a small CNC is basically the same with the big ones, the only difference is the numbers, same angles, same 360 degree rotation, a $300 mini CNC for practice is your best bet



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    KHouJ makes a very good point. If you start with a small (but reasonable quality) machine and do your learning with it, you will risk less and probably get some useful productivity out of it.

    It could be worth your while looking for a small but robust second hand machine to start with. The controller might be obsolete and need upgrading, but we have some very good solutions for that.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    If you are looking for a machine that doesn't cost a lot, but that can be productive and is well supported, I think the PCNC 1100 is a good pick. However, I agree with the other poster that if your target is tool steel, you may want to do more research. And it sounds like you have the room and the power (electrical) for a used stronger machine. Other than that caveat, the PCNC 1100 is a nice package. There is a learning curve involved, especially in the CAM side. I have had my machine for 6 months and have finally gotten to the point of being able CAD/CAM something and mill it, without any mess ups. But I didn't have 20 years of experience. You are right about the CAD/CAM learning curve. One day with someone real who knows Fusion 360, who you can interact with (ask questions), probably equals a month of online videos. I didn't have that. I think the best videos are those by this guy...



    I had done a lot of work in tools like Blender, so I was already versed in 3D, but CAM was very new to me. The hard part is that the information you need is scattered amongst many videos and forums. That is why working with someone directly would be much faster. The organization is actually very straight forward. Setups and Operations. But the parameters are many and a live person would certainly deliver the big picture faster than you hunting for it. Also, use cheap tooling in the beginning. Some people start with wood, I tried it, but it is really messy. I would start with air, then aluminum. As far as working with aluminum and some soft steel, I am very happy with the PCNC 1100, but I don't have a clue with what it would do with tool steel. And I am not too anxious about testing it either.

    Bob



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Thanks guys, it sounds like I'm in the right place.
    I can see some real merit in practicing with a cheap machine till I get my wings and see if I am capable and I would probably be silly not to do that first.
    Yes I am a qualified toolmaker / machinist (no doubt like many on here) however I've always considered myself a technological retard. I mean, I can use windows and things like that and had some experience with 2D AutoCad but have a long way to go. I will plug away with the Fusion 360 program but will definitely be on the lookout for a real human that I can spend a few hours with now and then.
    Thanks again - appreciate it.

    Jeff.



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    I find AutoCad to be an excellent example of a lousy non-ergonomic human-incompatible design. There are far better, even for 2D.

    Cheers



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Yes can't help think they lost their way ye olde autocad.



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    The sad part about the Tormach is that you will pay a ridiculous amount of money for it here, the upside is that because they're so rare here it will probably hold its value fairly well. I am looking at a PCNC 1100 sized mill, still haven't come up with a viable option as yet

    I followed this post closely, it is certainly worth a look. The quality of the machine looks good, and it's build in the same district/suburb as the Tormachs in China. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/uncate...ach-posts.html This machine leaves the Tormach for dead - ground double-nut ballscrews, servos, linear rails, huge amount of mass in the body... and you will get it to Sydney for less than the Tormach.. just a thought!


    I second Fusion360, I use it on my CNC router, it is a very powerful package, and having the CAD and the CAM in one slick program is great. There are parts to Solidworks I prefer, but for someone learning, Fusion360 is definitely your best bet. Syscore is right on the money, youtube videos are actually a really great source of info, especially Lars Christensen, he is a guru! The other place to ask for help, which isn't quite a face to face person, is the fusion360 forums at https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360/ct-p/1234 there are a lot of people there to help you with any curly questions.
    ith any curly questions.



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Thanks again all for the comments.
    I've spent the last few weeks worth of evenings digesting YouTube Video Tutorials on Fusion 360 (including the Lars Christiansen Channel) and I do believe I'm getting somewhere with the 2D and 3D CAD design on fusion. I have also been in contact with a couple of guys (one of which has agreed to swing by and see where I'm up to with it this week and get me on the right track!) so the ball is rolling.
    I'm at a stage where I can draw and model many things but am getting stuck on vital features - definitely impressed with it though.
    As far as the debate goes about the Tormach I agree with all pro and con arguments contributed. I have also done a bit of research to educate me on a few fundamental facets of CNC machines and have come accross a few manufacturers that seem to offer a better (and of course more expensive) machine but it's all about drawing the line somewhere. I suppose because of my lack of background in this field, I am looking for a complete plug in and go package with some technical support thrown in and why I am attracted to the likes of Tormach.
    However, when I look at machines like the Optimum (F80) range available at Hare & Forbes and the "Automate" CNC's in the US offering more horse power and industrial quality controllers it does make my thoughts wander.
    I realize my research is still at an early level because I have only just figured out that 4th axis doesn't automatically mean "continuous 4th axis". I'm not sure what this does to the purchase budget and I may need to reassess what I intend to tackle with a VMC.
    (Question: does any one know whether the Seimens 808D Adanced controller will support a true continuous 4th axis?) I was toying with the idea of upgrading one of the above mentioned machines to the advanced controller and a 4th axis rotary table and see what it might do to the quote..

    Cheers,
    Jeff.



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Fusion 360: an interesting concept, but last I heard it would not be happy on an isolated machine without an internet connection, and of recent times the network delays here have been almost intolerable, just for downloads. As most CNC PCs are NOT on the internet, for extremely good reason, it would have limited utility - or so it seems to me.
    My information may be out of date now, but last I heard Fusion 360 could not handle continuous motion on a 4th axis. That would render it almost useless for most of my uses. But I may be out of date.

    Hare & Forbes: almost anything would be half the price and twice the quality of something from H&F - again in my experiences. Yes, I have bought from them in the past. No, I was NOT happy. Buying a second hand 'industrial' machine would be a far smarter idea imho.

    'Industrial quality controller': does this mean something from 20 years ago, not NIST Standard compliant, and with only a single source for spares? Bear in mind as well that many of these older controllers cannot handle a 4th axis, or can only handle one as an indexer. Again, imho, the era of those older technology controllers is PAST. To be sure, there are many, many of them on factory floors still - with quite horrible support costs these days. A sunk cost for many.

    Plug & Play: you want full hand-hold, you pay. No two ways about it. But there are thousands of enthusiastic CNC owners out there today running machines with greater performance than some of ye olde dinosaurs - machines which they have built themselves. We have technology today which was unheard of 20 years ago. We also have cheap Chinese machines which should be allowed to cross the waters ...)



    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Thanks Roger,

    You ask me a few questions that I can't answer and hope someone can so I'll put a few scenarios out there that more experienced guys might be able to chime in on- (please be kind).:


    1. By Industrial Controllers I am I right in assuming the basic Seimens 808D (3 axis) and 808D Advanced (up to 5 axis) is where it starts and goes up from there?
    2. I am aware that Fusion 360 is unable to do any 4th axis CAM however for the handful of jobs I have in mind that would require a continuous 4th, I am thinking that I can maybe design and model the part export the drawing to someone who can generate the G-Code for me to plug back into my machine.???? Is this an option or am I dreaming? OR.
    3. I also thought that maybe a continuous 4th axis toolpath may be able to be generated by conversational programming???( thus enabling me to use Fusion 360 for everything else but 4th axis stuff).


    As far as Hare & Forbes go, I've got to say that I am a happy customer. There are certain lines of machines I would certainly avoid if I want to make a living but they sell some good gear with excellent after sales and spare parts service - just wish they would deal with decent tooling manufacturers.

    No surprise that the whole plug and play thing costs money but I am getting a few handy contacts that may be of help. I am not rich and certainly would hate to be interperated as sounding arrogant but I am coming from a small business perspective and the option to spend $10 or $15K more and have a machine making parts 6 months earlier than a project machine build that I really don't have the experience to put together is certainly one that I won't ignore.

    Great comments thanks, Jeff.



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Hi Jeff

    Bearing in mind that I am NOT really familiar with the Siemens range, I offer the following comments:

    Yes, the 808D is the start of (one of) their range(s). However, while I am sure it is very modern-looking, it is still a dinosaur design.
    The controller runs a Siemens custom language and is probably quite software-incompatible with every other brand on the market (I think). It is also 'obsolete' as of now.
    EDIT: the Siemens language does include basic G-code instructions. That is fortunate. But the rest is not Standard.
    The interface between the controller and the motors seems to be by ethernet, which means the motors are going to be quite big bikkies, and you won't have any choices. On the other hand, I may have got that partly wrong: their data is not very clear.

    I write my own NIST g-code programs in a parametric style, and that includes full 4-axis work. But I have been programming fairly heavily since about 1970, so I don't find that difficult. Also, by using Mach3, I have automatic access to full 6-axis performance. On the other hand, I do not use 'conversational programming' as it could never manage to handle the complexities I machine. VERY biased opinion: so-called conversational programming is a futile attempt to let the machine owners avoid paying a skilled programmer or engineer to do the work. We have been there before in other areas: it never worked.

    I haven't been back to the Rabbits for many years. Too many equipment problems which were completely ignored when I wrote to them. There was NO after-sales service then. And their tooling costs were a little high for the rather low quality.

    Machine costs: I can understand about the cost of your time and running a business. I have been selling my products too. The BIG problem is the Australian market: everyone wants 100% mark-up, cash up front, and many lack the skills to provide technical after-sales support. A CNC is a very complex machine, and right now we don't have enough infrastructure here. Which is of very little use to YOU!

    It's a problem.
    Cheers
    Roger

    Last edited by RCaffin; 09-19-2017 at 04:07 AM.


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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Hi Jeffers.....the question is.......you do want to get into CNC don't you?......so with that all you need to do is decide on the machine you need for your work load and what money you want to invest.

    The machine you decide on will be the one you need but don't yourself use.

    That is, you are not going to be the operator, as CNC machines are mainly operator driven and a programmer or person with CNC machining experience will be the one to do the down and dirty work of standing in front of the control board and pushing the red button when the green light flashes........you won't have time to run a business too in that scenario.....jack of all trades etc.

    I expect you just want to know how a CNC machine performs it's tasks without user interface in the act.........this is a whole lot different to being an old school machinist where you achieved the final result by cut and try methods....BTDT, etc.

    So, get to your tool dealers, have a sticky beek at their machinery, but keep your hand in your pocket while noting how much you will be in red for.

    It would pay hugely to have someone with you who is familiar with CNC machining as the dealers will "advise" you to spend big as that is what they are there for.

    The game has changed old sport.....it's not like it used to be.......the machine now does the accurate work and you are just going to be a button pusher if you intend to work on one.

    Don't buy second hand well used oldy world yesterdays heros that are now well past their use by date.....they'll cost you more just replacing the parts that are worn and no longer reliable.

    If you just want to get hands on knowledge of CNC and how they work.....buy a 3040 CNC router on EBAY for under a grand and play with it while learning what makes them tick.

    Meanwhile, be more professional, as your new CNC business enterprise depends on you being the watcher not the worker......CNC machining is a VERY as in EXTREMELY VERY competitive field and the best you will get is to be the cheapest and quickest on the block.
    Ian.



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    Thumbs up Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Thanks Roger and Ian,
    I'm really glad I came here for some input. I know all about our wonderful country's attitude to giant mark ups and limited service from the industry I work in. It sure sucks but we just have to battle on eh?.

    Just a little more about where I'm coming from: I suppose I am thinking on more than one plane. I am a small business in a niche market and - for the most part - mainly a one man show. I am goal driven and hate failing at things (I think my wife calls it f##cking stubborn) and once I get a bee in my bonnet about something I generally start researching and see it through, but I am smart enough (or maybe not rich enough) to make investments without knowing I'll be able to actually make it work , hence my boots and all approach right now getting my head around CAD / CAM and familiarising myself with some fundamental CNC lingo so that I can ask more questions.
    I think I will grab a little eBay machine to start having a play with and will continue to research as much as possible about entry level small production machines that will actually contribute to my business. It's looking like a machine of this type will be in the vicinity of $40-$50K plus (I have custom "one-offs" and small production in mind with some prototyping - not large production runs).
    I think once I get a few concepts under my belt I'll be on my way to making it a viable investment especially as my experience grows. In other words , yes Ian. I know I need one just need to learn as much as I can first.

    Enjoying the thread and please think of me if any interesting information on machine manufacturers or controller options or whatever crosses your path. I hope to keep you posted on my progress.

    Cheers,
    Jeff.



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    It might help if we knew a bit more about what you want to do - things like object dimensions, materials, etc. It is one thing to want a 2 m x 1 mm router for making custom wood doors, another thing to want to make wax masters for jewelry never more than 50 x 50 x 50 mm (and yes, we have one of those people here), and another thing to want to machine titanium aerospace parts in a 200 x 100 x 100 mm volume. Needless to say, very different machines!

    Who knows: someone here might even be able to suggest the 'perfect' machine for you IF we had more knowledge. That said, having a play with a really cheap little toy might be (will be) educational.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: Getting into CNC - opinions appreciated.

    Roger you are not out of date continuous is still soon, 4th axis indexing is fine most of the time, wrapping is wrapping it can be BS'ed but it's still wrapping.

    4140HT It would not hurt to jump on the fusion forum and ask if some one near you can help, there's also Titian's of cnc academy that has from basic to advanced cad and cam, with vid drawings and the models TITANS of CNC: Academy

    <img src="https://ivxo1q-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mENMmTr_Cabc7pR0FUdB6gtbADq2JbuG4_rGy0eBQvLJx19pTi6TqMUIJN0xgOyDIc0gWoxYhS38HpbSTFGdfaK-o42IOU6jczrhDpfpCOTNGL1X6hvZCbgj0y35gqmq1YGTrWwShYGV-C7lXA2esy0Pi_WfnBSyroDLSGXwce4uSr1U7op7srdi78rispHCa_K4aFlTlJPVkkNWMfgh_Tg?width=60&height=60&cropmode=none" width="60" height="60" />

    Being Disabled is OK CNC is For fuN


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