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    Default MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Hi guys,
    I have a 1998 Multicam M1 1200x1200.
    The machine seems solid and goes OK, although I do wish it had some sort of homing sensors. My main gripe is the ancient software, Toolpath and CASmate, that run on Windows 98.
    As the carcass of the machine is sound, I intend replace the electronics for a more modern system that would allow me to use:
    1- More up to date computer and software, I used Mach3 and Cut 2D with my previous CNC6040, so I'm thinking a similar setup. and
    2- Install some kind of homing sensors.
    3- I do like the touch pad controller that is attached to the machine, so want some kind of similar pendant/ touch pad controller at the machine rather than doing it all from the computer.

    I'm not electronics savvy, but have started to research breakout boards and motion controllers etc. But have little idea how it all goes together. Does all the electronics go into the computer housing or can some of it go into the existing housing that is under the router base? Is it possible to keep the current pendant touch pad controller or do I have to completely bypass all the old electronics and start from scratch, apart from the motors?

    Any help would be great, even to point me in the right direction.

    Cheers
    Pari

    MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE-m1_0019-jpg

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    Last edited by pari; 03-13-2016 at 06:56 PM.


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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Multi Cam I looked at them many years ago 20 something grand .Hope you got it for a good price plenty of options for electrics depending on where you are they are belt driven from memory (I'm old ) .I guess it depends on what you want to do with it .



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Should be able to put most of the electronics on the box under the table and then either parallel cable to a Bob or a USB to a smoothsteeper from the computer. Doubt you can keep the pendent but others seem to be readily available for Mach 3 (not my area of expertise). Might even be able to keep the motor drivers if worthwhile.

    Or get a Chinese dsp, which is a stand alone pendant based motion controller.

    Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

    In case anyone is wondering, I'm the twin of the other gfacer on cnczone...


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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Multi Cam I looked at them many years ago 20 something grand .Hope you got it for a good price plenty of options for electrics depending on where you are they are belt driven from memory (I'm old ) .I guess it depends on what you want to do with it .
    From what I can see it has rack and pinions on the X and Y and a Ball screw on the Z. I took the top cover off the Gantry to have a look at what kind of motors and I can see a belt that goes to the Z but no others for the gantry.
    I got it at what I would consider a half decent price at around $5000. It has a vacuum table and Pump but I have no means to use it yet as i don't have 3 Phase power.
    I'm keen to make it useful for both cutting plywood and to mill some mountain board wheels and trucks from aluminum.

    Last edited by pari; 03-15-2016 at 07:45 AM.


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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Should be able to put most of the electronics on the box under the table and then either parallel cable to a Bob or a USB to a smoothsteeper from the computer. Doubt you can keep the pendent but others seem to be readily available for Mach 3 (not my area of expertise). Might even be able to keep the motor drivers if worthwhile.

    Or get a Chinese dsp, which is a stand alone pendant based motion controller.
    Thanks for the reply.
    That's very helpful. Some one else advised a Gecko 540, would this go under the table or in the computer and does it act as the BOB?
    Also Smoothstepper was suggested but with a Ethernet cable, would you agree with this option or is there an advantage to USB?
    Excuse my lack of Knowledge but do you mean the Smoothstepper would go in the computer housing with either cable (USB/Ethernet) running to the electronics housing?
    I had a look in the electronics box and could identify the motor drivers, it would be great if they could just stay in there as they seem to be doing the job OK.
    I didn't think that the pendant could be used, but hope it might. I'll do some research on the DSP Stand alone pendant option.

    MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE-multicam-motor-controllers-jpg
    MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE-multicam-electronics-jpg

    Last edited by pari; 03-15-2016 at 07:43 AM.


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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    So a gecko 540 is (I believe) a newer 3 motor driver. So it would replace the three existing motor drivers. When I am talking it's a bit of the blind leading the blind as I've only thought about a project like yours.

    Most motor drivers take step and direction signals from a controller (the bigger board by the looks of it). That controller varies. In original Mach three and Linux cnc, the step and direction are pin outs from the parallel cable. If you add an Ethernet smoothsteeper (sorry was thinking different usb controller uncnc) then that is the controller (and Mach 3 becomes the user interface and controls the controller).

    So anyhow, as long as the motor drivers take step and direction you should be able to use them or at least try. You should also be able to keep the existing power supply (round wire thing).

    Hard to see what else is in there.

    One question though, how do you load files on right now? Using cut 2d might still be possible if you have a relatively easy way to load a file.

    A suspect it might be a similar controller to a 1996 Camtech my brother is refitting, it had to basically download the routers firmware each time it was started (from a pc). That's not worth keeping but if it got a floppy or something it might be fine.






    Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

    In case anyone is wondering, I'm the twin of the other gfacer on cnczone...


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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Smoothstepper was suggested but with a Ethernet cable, would you agree with this option or is there an advantage to USB?
    Biased opinion: the USB is great for cameras and keyboards, but lousy when trying to control POWER equipment. The Ethernet is very good, as it overcomes almost all the USB deficiencies. You will find quite a bit here on the two if you search.
    My USB Smooth Stepper was crashing about once a day. I replaced it with an Ethernet SS, and have not had a crash since.

    Pendants: I really, really would NOT worry about them until you have the system up and running reliably for a while. I have one, it's right there, but i rarely use it.

    Gecko540: rather a good unit with excellent support from Peter at Homann Designs.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    One question though, how do you load files on right now? Using cut 2d might still be possible if you have a relatively easy way to load a file.
    At the moment I do all my file transfer from CAD etc on my Windows 7 laptop. Then export them onto a zip drive to my Windows 98 computer as whatever I can get CASmate to read, usually EPS, DXF. CASmate is a retched program in my mind but has some useful tools. Then export from there as PLT (plot file) to ToolPath which is were you have to go to set up the tool paths: depths of cut, tool type etc. That gets sent to the machine and at the machine I use the pendant keypad to start the cutting once I've done the Z/home and depth of material etc. It's a very slow and painstaking process that has software that is unreliable and glitchy. That's why I want to update everything, as I waste so much time and am limited is options.

    Last edited by pari; 03-16-2016 at 08:00 AM.


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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Biased opinion: the USB is great for cameras and keyboards, but lousy when trying to control POWER equipment. The Ethernet is very good, as it overcomes almost all the USB deficiencies. You will find quite a bit here on the two if you search.
    My USB Smooth Stepper was crashing about once a day. I replaced it with an Ethernet SS, and have not had a crash since.

    Pendants: I really, really would NOT worry about them until you have the system up and running reliably for a while. I have one, it's right there, but i rarely use it.

    Gecko540: rather a good unit with excellent support from Peter at Homann Designs.
    Yes, Peter is who recommended the Gecko setup. I think I'm leaning to that as I've heard other people saying that the Gecko 540 are a good unit. And it sounds like the Ethernet option is again good advice from what you are saying.
    So you don't use your pendant, but how do you make things happen at the router. I'm just trying to picture the setup and maybe that is because at my last job ( I quite a few weeks ago) I was working on a 3m x2m MultiCam router and I got use to the computer in the office and I did all the starting the machine, homing, Z read etc at the router with the on board keypad.



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Do you have any idea what sort of motors and drivers you have or do you plan to replace everything.
    The existing could be stepper or servo. need to know the frame size before deciding which way to go. Also need t decide what level of performance you desire, its all inter connected



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    The motor on the gantry is a stepper so I'm guessing that means the controller are too, correct me if that's not the case. I would like a fairly robust machine, but I'm not sure how to gauge the performance of mine against what I would/could expect to get. As long as I can cut through 18mm ply at a decent rate and mill ali 3mm at a time I would be happy enough with that.
    As for replacing the motors, I wasn't planning on that, but if the Gecko system is what I decide on I'm not sure if i need the drivers or not. If I can keep them then great as i am on a bit of a budget.

    MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE-multicam-m1-stepper-motor-jpg

    Last edited by pari; 03-16-2016 at 08:37 PM.


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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    1.2 Amp motor won't have bags of power but if that's what the original used you should be able to get it to the specs it was sold with.
    Do you know any info on the machine.
    I would investigate what the drivers are before buying a Gecko. A few tests should show if they are step and direction or something else. Does the machine run at all, put a CRO on the inputs will show what it is.



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Yes this is the original motor for the router, but I have no specs or info for the machine, couldn't find any on the net. I'm going to keep the motors though, for cost reasons, but also they work fine and I don't want the added complication of housing new ones.
    The machine runs well, that's not an issue. I just don't want to be restricted with the ancient software and computer that i have to use with the system.
    But if the drivers (you mean motor drivers) are step and direction what does that change about the updated hardware that I would need. From what I read about the Gecko it has the drivers built in.
    What test would show if the drivers are step and direction?



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    if the machine is working well and you only want to use one of the more modern software like Mach then if the drivers are step and direction it is easy to interface to and you don't need to buy a gecko. All you would need would be an interface board, cheap, and maybe a motion controller like the Ethernet smooth stepper, I like to use a motion control board as it does simplify things a lot. Add in Mach 3 and your all set maybe $500 or less, even less if you use Linux.
    Do you know what an oscilloscope is or know anybody that may have one? That will show what signals are on the input pins of the driver boards. See that and easy to determine what the old system is using.
    Where in Aus are you, I am Fremantle.
    Can you take some good clear photos of the driver boards, there is 1 for each motor. There maybe some writing on the terminals that will tell us what it uses, have to be very lucky though.



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Quote Originally Posted by whimsical View Post
    1.2 Amp motor won't have bags of power but if that's what the original used you should be able to get it to the specs it was sold with.
    Do you know any info on the machine.
    I would investigate what the drivers are before buying a Gecko. A few tests should show if they are step and direction or something else. Does the machine run at all, put a CRO on the inputs will show what it is.
    The existing system is a stepper system using IMS drives. The G540 'ís' going to be the driver, what is there at the moment is irrelevant. Basically, the G540 is replacing all of the existing controller electronics.

    As to the steppers, they are an old design but should be serviceable. I recommend to use them initially, then if greater performance is required they can be replaced by a set of newer hybrid steppers.

    Cheers,

    Peter

    -------------------------------------------------
    Homann Designs - http://www.homanndesigns.com


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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    thanks For the clarification.
    I had a look at the control box tonight and I think the best way to proceed is to literally unplug the motor plugs that go in the side and the computer and connection and keypad connection that go in the other side and start with a new box with the whole new Gecko drive and Smoothstepper Ethernet system. It seems the simplest way to go and that way I'm not mixing and matching older part with newer ones.



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    How do I adjust the system if i don't use a pendant?
    My machine is a medium/small 2-spindle VMC, not a large router. The keyboard is close enough for 95% of ops.

    build a whole new system
    very often the easiest and best solution in the long run.
    I stripped out everything in my system, back to the main power transformer and the motors/encoders. Total rebuild from there. Happy.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    This thread has really helped to get a grasp of the overall picture of how the machine will look and function with the retrofit.

    A new enclosure for one: take the old electronics box off first and unplug the the cables for the Axis, keypad and Computer.
    And inside the box will go the new electronics in the form off a Gecko 540, SmootherStepper Ethernet, fans, power supply, power switch and socket etc.
    All of this is going to be wired to the limit/home switches and E Stop. Then I will have the computer connected to the electronics via the Ethernet cable.
    Please correct me if I've missed something or got it wrong.
    It all sounds very straight forward now that I've familiarized with the various parts but I have no doubts that it'll be more complicated once it comes to putting this all together.

    Does any one have some advice on how to handle the connection of the old Axis plugs to the new ( DB9) connections. Is It a case of simply chopping off the old connectors and soldering on the new ones or is there ready made cables, or simply buy shielded wire and making them up from scratch...or are all three OK? I don't know how easy it is to pull through new cables, but it might be straight forward enough if i need to do that.

    Thanks again guys for the invaluable advice and support.

    MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE-img_1042-jpg

    Oh one thing I forgot to say is I have to get to the bottom of why there is a bit of play in the spindle housing before I get stuck into this retrofit. So if anyone has any ideas of what I need to look for that would be greatly appreciated. It's and Old machine so it could have a linear rail that's worn or something similar going on but it's probably going to involve taking the 'head' apart.



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Yeah, basically about right. Some details might get added later: leave LOTS of room!

    You could try to salvage the existing connectors, but i think they are crimped? Even so, you could splice onto the wires at the back with heatshrink.
    I chopped and replaced with 9-pin Ds. 4 pins on either side for the motor wires, and pin 3 for the screen over the wires which I added. That's recommended.

    In fact, I used 9-pin Ds for all the connections, which meant I had to label every plug and every socket. DO LABEL!
    Thought for the D9s - get backshells with LONG locking screws, and use them! Nothing like having a connector vibrate off during a run ...

    Loose Spindle - you don't mention HOW it is loose. If it is sideways rattle, I would first suspect the spindle bearings. They may have been run dry for too long.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

    Thought for the D9s - get backshells with LONG locking screws, and use them! Nothing like having a connector vibrate off during a run ...
    Affimative...thanks for that advice. I will have to see what have to wirk with and what is within my skill level once I start to buy the parts.

    I think the looseness is where the top box on the gantry that has the Z and Y steppers in it and sits on top of the ganrty is where the problem is. I tried to isolate the movement and sort of traced it back there. I cam to that decision after a wedged a wooden door wedge under the spindle housing and the top of the gantry then did tried to replicate the movement and rattle i got when i gave it a hit (towards the X direction from the front of the spindle) and it stopped making a noise.
    It's only a very slight movement but too much to have and I think it will effect finish of work, especially any ali.
    Here's an image of the are and I've put the peg where I wedged it when it stopped the knocking noise.

    MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE-img_1047-jpg



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