MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

[victorofga]

you know, if it were mine, I only change really the electronics..
fix Z issue, finding how much spacer need between the block that nut is mounted on and the fron aluplate..

and from front would try to tie the nut to the aluplate..

and I explain why..
you can make a higher Z.. the screw length I think would let about 170-200 mm movement
mounting 1/2 in thick and about 2 1/2 in wide bars on the two side of screw you would have a base to mounting the longer rails..

the top purple cover front need to modify yet for this

now heres the question if you rise the Z movement it will make an excessive twisting on the gantry.,

will be the gantry rails sufficiently rigid?

so overall a lot work and practically you paid a lot money for already..
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in my opinion, fix electronics, fix Z issue and focus on getting enough work so you can buy a machine fit for you better..

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I just got to my shop a machine.. it was a demo machine in the factory.. showing customers what they going to get..
the gantry lets using 8 inches under, with two simple block I can rise about 2-3 inches and Z movement still ok..


it was at the door 5400.. this price including 1500 of broker, and other fees, plus 250 shipping from bonded warehouse.. no pump came with...
but, it works with simple G code and virtually any cad cam..

so im really not sure if it worth to working weeks, and investing hundreds, or even thiushands to retrofitting, redesigning your router..

[pari]

you know, if it were mine, I only change really the electronics..
fix Z issue, finding how much spacer need between the block that nut is mounted on and the fron aluplate..

and from front would try to tie the nut to the aluplate..

Yeah, I get your point. It does seem like a lot of headache already for what it's going to achieve.
Still haven't given up on the idea, but I probably will end up leaving it as it is at least for now and just concentrate on getting the thing working good and running it with the new software and electronics to see how it is to live with like that.
Certainly will try to lock in that Z aluplate to the nut that moves up and down.

I just got to my shop a machine.. it was a demo machine in the factory.. showing customers what they going to get..
the gantry lets using 8 inches under, with two simple block I can rise about 2-3 inches and Z movement still ok..


it was at the door 5400.. this price including 1500 of broker, and other fees, plus 250 shipping from bonded warehouse.. no pump came with...
but, it works with simple G code and virtually any cad cam..

so im really not sure if it worth to working weeks, and investing hundreds, or even thiushands to retrofitting, redesigning your router..

Is your machine any good... I was put of looking at Chinese routers because I'd heard (half rumors probably) that they weren't to good, un-level beds etc.
My reasoning to retrofit was that this router seems to have a pretty sturdy base to start with, with a vacuum table and decent spindle. So I thought that with the upgrade, as long as it DID'NT go into the thousands, that it would be worth at least as much and be as good as a cheapo China machine....I could be wrong.
Of course there is the hassle of it all, retrofitting and working it all out and the machine being down etc.

Thanks for the feedback....definitely got me questioning whether I really want to go down this road.

[RCaffin]

Biased and academic opinion given for free:
You will spend more $ than you want doing up this machine, but what you will learn in the process will be invaluable. It may even be that the machine will suit you for quite a while.
Perhaps fixing up the Z axis as you suggested (at a low cost) would be a good move at this stage. Then USE the machine for a while before you decide what else you want to do to it.

Cheers
Roger

[victorofga]

I think you got the point that repairing fixing this machine, you wont make the value that you can make with jobs..

if you could buy this machine for this price in 2000, I would say go and fix it, because its a great deal..

but from 2000 gone 16 years..
parts were almost impossible, or for a price no one could afford..

machines that has hiwin rails costed like a luxury car..
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I like to think this multicam company well deserved their reputation..
but.. they are really affordable for companies who capable to pay..
their outstanding support comes with outstanding price..

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you asking if machine I bought ""any good""
since im not sure what aprt you like to know.. I give some points..

the machine base a welded frame... after they welded, the rails on the side was machined in one setup so rails are parallel and straight..

bed ""leveled""
they resurfaced before sent so checking with indicator it shows zero all the way

the gantry made as rectangle tube cut to size welded two lid on end, and on a shaper the rails and rack seats were machined.. looks in one setup..

the sideplates all around machined

control... it has an ncstudio control, many don't likes, but it works.. you can program trough on g codes..
the controlcard plus breakout board cost 50 dollar with cable.. program comes free..

drives cost about 60 dollar each..
powersupply about 150
pendant about 120

spindle I think about 2-300

so anything breaks I can buy from at least 20 different places..

due to the pci card has a 160 kHz frequency and driver has been set for a very low resolution, it maxing out about 350 ipm (8812 mm per min)

and don't think a minute long a new of this would cost much more.. new one would cost 2000 more..
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now you can compare you got or compare what other companies selling..

I don't get the outstanding support..
to be honest example my pendant stops to work.. I will gout for a new one..

something stops, or break I go out for a new one

I cant imagine I using a spindle 10 years long because either way the collet nut or the inner taper will worn out..

I can not tell you go out and buy from this Chinese a machine..

but, buy something with your eye and with your experience, not with your ear..
you bought this machine because multicam is a great company.. but you didn't go back them asking for fixing control, or asking for a new Z assy...

[victorofga]

exact same machine but with a mach controlcard going with 500 ipm..
I believe even more pending on settings,,,



so this machine not for everything...
still I have and I keep the other machine what slower little a not so rigid like this for detailed work

what I posting picture here, this sign I just finished yesterday.. and those little details you cant run with extremely high feed.. so a slower machine will be same good..
this machine runs since 2012 February...
all issue was a powersupply for 150.. just for your question ""is it any good""

and again, think on while you can work and earn real cash you don't need headache how to solve design issues on your exist router, you purchased in the faith helps you..

[pari]

Your machine seems to be good enough. Nice plaque by the way.
Still, I'm not set either way with this project, so getting two points of views is a good thing and it is pretty much were I'm at with it.

On one hand I like my machine:
it's sturdy and quite a small package for the space I have in my garage.
It has a vacuum table that I haven't used yet but hope to.
All in all I think it needs a little TLC and it could suit my needs for quite a while.
I'm kind of reluctant to purchase another same size machine until/or if I out grow this size, especially as I've built my sound proofed room around it and would have to dismantle that just to get another machine in there.
Plus I see CNCing as much as a passion and my hobby at this stage as well as a slowly (very slowly) growing business. So I'm keen to learn and customize my machine which is a bit of an emotional reason I guess and not financially practical.
One the other hand:
Time and money are always short and I know that this project could eat up both,
plus i don't really have a machine shop situation were I can just knock up stuff real easy.
I looked into buying a Omni router before I got this one. I have a friend who was researching and also thinking of becoming their dealer in Australia. He did by one and like it and is their dealer, so that was one option I thought about.

Right now I've pulled the Z apart, familiarizing myself with how it all goes together and to see if it gives me any idea of how I can upgrade the Z. At the very least it has demistified the the dismantling and now i feel confidnet that i can put it back togehter pretty quickley once my new control box arrives. Peter of Homann Designs said it will be about two weeks before it is ready, so in that time I'm going to see what I can do bout the current Z down movement being totally reliant on GRAVITY, which just seems plain nuts to me. (what were you thinking MultiCam?)
I'm also going to use this time to check out the parts on line to build a Z from scratch and draw up some CAD based around intergrating the current Y rack and pinion setup attached to the back of the Z. And keep my eye open for any possible of the shelf Zs that might also work.
What will probably happen is the temporary fix up of the Z and put it all back together when the new box arrives, get it all working right and see how it is for a while and put it through it's paces.
This might shed some light on were to go from there. I may discover that there are more important issues that I should address rather that the Z and gantry height.

Here are my dismantled Z parts ready for measuring and figuring out what to do next!! Look at the size of that Y rail!!

[victorofga]

that was a good idea pulling full apart..

all my concern from beginng that the rails on the gantry are too close to each other..
very roughly as they are apart as much the gantry height can be..

very possible with elevated Z the added weight will require stronger motor on the Z.. so, when you figure electronics count on that too..


now you can figure everything..

if youre so desperate to build another Z.. then this is the way..
least headache use original design and rise only the frontplate height.. means stretch , ballscrew, frontplate and rails height and move the Z motor upward
everything outs leave as it is..


what is good for you, after draw up all part you can cut them with this machine..
wont be simple but viable..

virtually imagine you split the front plate horizontally and put between...

your material cost this way, aluminum possible 150-200, new ballscrew about 80... new rails with blocks about 200
and I think you can use all other parts.. motors, belts even bearing of the ball screw..


rising the gantry might need 2 new sideplate..but that complexity way less than making new Z


and yes, just clean up perfectly, fix the Z nut and get back together..
the table looking very neat yet.. try to resist to mount actual parts onto.. use an mdf.. so cutting into spoilbard never a problem.. and changing a 20 bux mdf cheaper than fixing table..

[pari]

the table looking very neat yet.. try to resist to mount actual parts onto.. use an mdf.. so cutting into spoilbard never a problem.. and changing a 20 bux mdf cheaper than fixing table..

The table was like that when I bought it, it is a bit of a mess. Nothing too serious though and it does need a some work to get rid of somehign spots were the router has caused burring.
I've worked on routers for a while now so the spoil board is obvious tome, would never route without one on.

if youre so desperate to build another Z.. then this is the way..
least headache use original design and rise only the frontplate height.. means stretch , ballscrew, frontplate and rails height and move the Z motor upward
everything outs leave as it is..

I had the same idea for this about using the same Z plate desgn but just longer. Still it is going to cost close to buying a ready made one, and less routing with a dodgy Z in place.
I need to get some advice on the different kinds of Z slides, and may start a new thread to ask this question.
It is only recently that I have became aware of the V groove method of motion control and don't really know much about it and what are the advantages or disadvantages over linear rails, other than perhaps cost. One thing I wonder about is debris getting on the V rails.
I've seen a nice piece of kit which interests me.


then I'm also looking at this kind of linear rail setup

[RCaffin]

V-groove - a super-cheap sloppy substitute for decent linear bearings.
May be OK for a cheap hobby wood router.

Cheers
Roger

[pari]

V-groove - a super-cheap sloppy substitute for decent linear bearings.
May be OK for a cheap hobby wood router.

Cheers
Roger

OK , thanks. I was sure but I had my doubts. Linear rails it is then. Have you seen any decent Z slides around? I've been looking on eBay and Ali-express, but I thought there'd be more choice.


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[RCaffin]

They come and they go.
Me, I would browse eBay for a few days or a week and see what turns up.
AliExpress won't accept Paypal, which is a bit stupid of them. So I don't go there.

Cheers
Roger

[Big S]

At the moment I do all my file transfer from CAD etc on my Windows 7 laptop. Then export them onto a zip drive to my Windows 98 computer as whatever I can get CASmate to read, usually EPS, DXF. CASmate is a retched program in my mind but has some useful tools. Then export from there as PLT (plot file) to ToolPath which is were you have to go to set up the tool paths: depths of cut, tool type etc. That gets sent to the machine and at the machine I use the pendant keypad to start the cutting once I've done the Z/home and depth of material etc. It's a very slow and painstaking process that has software that is unreliable and glitchy. That's why I want to update everything, as I waste so much time and am limited is options.

I worked on a slightly bigger multicam for a month or two, CASmate was such a pain in the neck to use!

The machine that I used had the same type Z-axis, with the spindle weight holding it down. It wasn't fixed to the ball nut but sat on top of it. Every so often a chip would hang up on end of the cutter and stop the spindle plunging, then it would get cut through and the spindle would drop to cutting depth with a thump. Was quite disconcerting but it didn't break a cutter doing it!

It was plenty rigid for aluminium cutting though, I wouldn't discount that single rail on the Y-axis

Shannon.

[InMesh]

I used16 mm I think HIWIN rail from cnc cupcake world Dan has a few different sizes and bearings of which I used 4 two a side . very accurate and strong.

[whimsical]

AliExpress won't accept Paypal, which is a bit stupid of them. So I don't go there.

Cheers
Roger

No PayPal because PayPal Has buyer protection and will just take the money back if the buyer has a problem.
Aliexpress only looks after the seller. I have been burnt in a very clear case and go nowhere with Aliexpress.
From now on No PayPal No Buy

[RCaffin]

How very ... Chinese.
Cheers
Roger

[victorofga]

if that second you plan to buy that's a good choice..

the first picture with v-rollers... wont work same way... you cant void dust and debris..

on my machine I bought in 2011 has bellows... within years it was open twice..
means zero maintenance as word means..


it has supported round rails and little better than v rollers, but way less than a square rail..

[victorofga]

heres the link similar you posted
seller says stroke can be customized.. even he builts in the limit switch(s)

cnc Electric slider 1605 Ball screw linear slider steel frame heavy load z axis stroke 100mm sl109#-in Linear Guides from Industry & Business on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

[pari]

Yes I looked at this one and was interested in it. The price seems reasonable. As to previous comments about paying with PayPal, this is a valid concern and I would prefer to have some kind of assurance if I had a problem vendor.
The other thing about some of the Z axis slides that I'm hesitant about is the Nema 23 steeper housing that sit on the top of the axis. I'll try to explain: because I will be attaching my motor with its back mount plate, the plate is quite long and would need to clear the stepper motor housing on the upward stroke. The way the Z axis motion works now is with a belt and the motor it mounted behind the Z axis's main plate over the gantry. This keeps the weight a little further back and also allows the long spindle plate to move as much as it could without any problem of a stepper housing obstacle.
I've started drawing the CAD to see how a longer version of the current setup with the belt would look, and will post and hopefully get some feedback once it's finished.



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[pari]

Yes I looked at this one and was interested in it. The price seems reasonable. As to previous comments about paying with PayPal, this is a valid concern and I would prefer to have some kind of assurance if I had a problem vendor.
The other thing about some of the Z axis slides that I'm hesitant about is the Nema 23 steeper housing that sit on the top of the axis. I'll try to explain: because I will be attaching my motor with its back mount plate, the plate is quite long and would need to clear the stepper motor housing on the upward stroke. The way the Z axis motion works now is with a belt and the motor it mounted behind the Z axis's main plate over the gantry. This keeps the weight a little further back and also allows the long spindle plate to move as much as it could without any problem of a stepper housing obstacle.
I've started drawing the CAD to see how a longer version of the current setup with the belt would look, and will post and hopefully get some feedback once it's finished.



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I got my new controller box back (for the second time). I had to send it back to Homann Designs as somehow on my fiery attempt to connect a stepper I blow 3 if the 4 drives on the G540. Any way, I've got one of the drives working all good now and am thinking of putting it all back together. I still have the Z and Y motor assembly dismantled as I was measuring up for the CAD designs for a new Z and also cleaning everything up.
But now that I'm ready to start putting things back together I thought now would be a good time to upgrade the cabling. I bought some 4 core shielded cable a long time ago when I was thinking about an upgrade for my old 6040. The cables on the stepper now are not shielded.
I'm not to sure what connectors to use to connect the motors to the new cables. Any suggestions out there? The current ones seem good, east to get apart and I imagine quite easy to set up, just a pair of crimps and slide the pins into the plastic housing.



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[RCaffin]

You blew 3 out of 4 of the stepper drives on a G540? That must be some sort of record! What did Peter say?

Yes, I would most emphatically shield the motor cables!!!

I used soldered 9-pin D connectors for everything, but the Molex connectors you show should be fine for the steppers. Just make sure you do the crimps well.

Cheers
Roger