MULTICAM M1 ELECTRONICS UPGRADE

[RCaffin]

At a guess, I would look almost anywhere other than at the linear rail, if it is a real one.
Strip down, find loose bolts, and rebuild. 50% chance.

Cheers
Roger

[pari]

At a guess, I would look almost anywhere other than at the linear rail, if it is a real one.
Strip down, find loose bolts, and rebuild. 50% chance.

Cheers
Roger

OK thanks for that. The rail is a big old hefty thing, a single one, but I will give what you say about a strip down andlooking at all the nuts and bolts a go.

I'm getting quite excited at the prospect of turning this old router into a better machine...

[victorofga]

that motor you posted picture looks little small for a 4x4 feet machine..

you can make a quote with multicam they might have offer you... however with multicam, you have to go back to them always with all issues..
it doesn't mean they stuff would be bad, it just not for a ""budget""
versus a modern control, you can drive either way mach3 or Linux...

you need something what don't lock you in a scheme.. that's why I think independent drives for motors would be better for you..
for the Z you might need something like 4.5 A or more to lifting a heaver spindle..

if youre on budget, then your choice either way kelinginc or ebay...

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from kelinginc a ready box about 550, plus I would replace all motors.. but this drive cant handle 4-5 A on one axis..

http://www.automationtechnologiesinc...ver-controller
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from ebay

similar price but for more torque

From USA 4AIXS Nema34 Stepper Motor 11 2N M 1600oz in 151mm 3A 5 7V CNC Mile | eBay

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for a little more you can get hybrid drive, means not exactly servo, but closed loop, fast and for a very low price..

[RCaffin]

Can't be a single rail, surely! There has to be two rails to get any stability at all.
Yeah, it's a project.

If you go Mach, stick with Mach3 for the present. I suggest an Ethernet Smooth Stepper and two MB02 BoBs from Homann Designs. Medium PC running XP SP3 or W7 (NOT later). I KNOW that combo works.

Cheers
Roger

[gfacer2]

Can't be a single rail, surely! There has to be two rails to get any stability at all.
Yeah, it's a project.

If you go Mach, stick with Mach3 for the present. I suggest an Ethernet Smooth Stepper and two MB02 BoBs from Homann Designs. Medium PC running XP SP3 or W7 (NOT later). I KNOW that combo works.

Cheers
Roger

It actually looks a lot like the style of a Camtech my brother is working on, on his one side were 2 sets of bearings in v configuration on the single round rail and basically clamped with the pinion between the rail and rack.

The other side should have been the same but was only a single bearing on top of the round rail, also clamped withe pinion.

Not what you expect on a commercial machine now but common enough at the time.


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[pari]

that motor you posted picture looks little small for a 4x4 feet machine.
you can make a quote with multicam they might have offer you... however with multicam, you have to go back to them always with all issues..

It's a 2.2Kw Perske spindle, original with the machine. But for now I'll stick with it and see how my needs develop once things are up and running. I agree that dealing with MultiCam for a new motor would get prohibitively expensive.

you need something what don't lock you in a scheme.. that's why I think independent drives for motors would be better for you..
for the Z you might need something like 4.5 A or more to lifting a heaver spindle

The same with the motors. I'll see how I go once the updates are made. I'm still leaning towards the G540 with the current motors. For me a lot of it is about having support here in Australia as I might need a lot of hand holding to get things together not being electronics savvy. I suppose that's why I'm kinda set on the G540, because it is keeping things a bit more simple.

from kelinginc a ready box about 550, plus I would replace all motors.. but this drive cant handle 4-5 A on one axis..

Certainly the idea of a ready to go box is very very appealing to me for the same reasons as I said earlier... not electronics savvy. But also I really want to stick with a seller that is going to take the time to answer my annoying newbie questions.

At this stage I don't have a clear idea where I'm going with CNC. I have a small garage set up, built a room around the machine and sound proofed it. 1200x1200 is about as big a machine I can go. It may turn out that I manage to sustain a small business from it and if that is the case, and that would be my ideal scenario, then I would rethink where I head....better machine or build on this one even more.
Some of your other suggestions may make more sense to by then as far as drives and motors options etc.

for a little more you can get hybrid drive, means not exactly servo, but closed loop, fast and for a very low price..

What are the advantages of a "closed loop" and what is it?

[pari]

Can't be a single rail, surely! There has to be two rails to get any stability at all.
Yeah, it's a project.

If you go Mach, stick with Mach3 for the present. I suggest an Ethernet Smooth Stepper and two MB02 BoBs from Homann Designs. Medium PC running XP SP3 or W7 (NOT later). I KNOW that combo works.

Yes a single rail and don't call me Shirley.
I know right! But that's how it is and i was thinking the same that it's not the best idea.
Do you mean two MB02s over the G540 or as part of the G540 set up? And why two?

[gfacer2]

What are the advantages of a "closed loop" and what is it?

Closed loop means the controller knows if the stepper isn't where it's supposed to be (ie lost steps due to push it too hard or fast). Its an advantage but thousands of people work with regular stepper setups and are fine.



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[pari]

It actually looks a lot like the style of a Camtech my brother is working on, on his one side were 2 sets of bearings in v configuration on the single round rail and basically clamped with the pinion between the rail and rack.

The other side should have been the same but was only a single bearing on top of the round rail, also clamped withe pinion.

Not what you expect on a commercial machine now but common enough at the time.

Is your brother planning on any mods to running gear? I'm getting ahead of my self here but I was staring to think of what would be involved with improvements on the gantry, particularly raising the Z axis as it on has 70mm at the mo. But as were on the subject of the rail.....any thoughts?

(i hope I'm not going off thread subject to much)

[RCaffin]

Ah - if you go with the G540 you may not need the MB02s. Check with either Gecko direct or Peter Homann.

Closed loop etc etc:
If you use steppers you can go open loop provided that you never lose a step. Thousands work this way, and I am not sure whether the G540 can handle encoder feedback anyhow. The point here is that if the stepper does lose a step, sending it more steps to compensate probably won't work. The stepper has run out of torque at this stage.

If you use servo motors, they must have encoder feedback for the servo driver. A servo drive is more complex, albeit not necessarily a lot more expensive, but it can have a lot more torque and power.
My thoughts: try using the motors you have for a start.

Rails
Single rail? Oh My Gawd. I have seen 'bad', but not that bad. Sorry.

No, not off thread. The thread is 'your machine'.

Cheers
Roger

[pari]

Rails
Single rail? Oh My Gawd. I have seen 'bad', but not that bad. Sorry.

LOL. Now you've got me worried!

[gfacer2]

Is your brother planning on any mods to running gear? I'm getting ahead of my self here but I was staring to think of what would be involved with improvements on the gantry, particularly raising the Z axis as it on has 70mm at the mo. But as were on the subject of the rail.....any thoughts?

(i hope I'm not going off thread subject to much)

Yeah, he's got a thread on it (not tons lately). Its a work in progress. He's replacing the Z and raising the gantry too (just used risers). The single rail on the gantry still has 2 sets of bearings on it, right? I've seem diy designs like that.


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[pari]

Yeah, he's got a thread on it (not tons lately). Its a work in progress. He's replacing the Z and raising the gantry too (just used risers). The single rail on the gantry still has 2 sets of bearings on it, right? I've seem diy designs like that.

Could you send me the link for his thread....I'm keen to see how it's progressing and follow it.

[gfacer2]

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/commer...-software.html

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[pari]

Thanks. I had a look. It will be interesting to see what he ends up with.
Yes he has the same rail system at least on one side as mine.

[pari]

I've started to pull things apart and this Z axis doesn't seem right to me, too much play in it.
Any feedback on this, is this right or should there be no slack.

[victorofga]

from your video, just a guessing, the bolts, that hold nut , those bolts are missing

when the spindle is on, the weight is hold down the Z slider..

those 4 holes looking for the purpose on the middle ofZ slider


yours at least looks like has timing belt

my friend at Victoria, has some bicycle chain on the ""X""" axis , no ballscrew, no rack n pinion, simple bicycle chain...
im not sure about the brand, I think the frog or camtech
when he said me first, I just didn't want to believe..

on other side, I watched the other topic what gfacer posted... those custom made aluextrusions, sure very expenses..

rails are just running on their top some ballbearing...

so on one side they spent tremendous money to purchasing special extrusions, and same time they used rails, I seen only on woodworking hobby machines, like little tablesaw and shapers..

[pari]

from your video, just a guessing, the bolts, that hold nut , those bolts are missing

when the spindle is on, the weight is hold down the Z slider..

those 4 holes looking for the purpose on the middle ofZ slider

I have to double check that I haven't created the issue when I took those bolts of the front of the slider. But I remember saying something to the MultiCam support guy about a while back. He didn;t seem to think it was an issue but maybe he didn't get what I was talking about. Anyway I'm in the process of dismantling all the slider so I should have a clearer idea of what is going on once it get it off and expose the ball screw etc.

Closed loop etc etc:
If you use steppers you can go open loop provided that you never lose a step. Thousands work this way, and I am not sure whether the G540 can handle encoder feedback anyhow. The point here is that if the stepper does lose a step, sending it more steps to compensate probably won't work. The stepper has run out of torque at this stage.

If you use servo motors, they must have encoder feedback for the servo driver. A servo drive is more complex, albeit not necessarily a lot more expensive, but it can have a lot more torque and power.
My thoughts: try using the motors you have for a start.

Now that I'm starting to pull dismantle I'm wondering if I should be thinking further ahead about what kind of options for motors I might want.
I'm going to look into this a bit more, do some research.
Certainly more torque and power would be good for my needs further down the line.

[pari]

Update: I put the machine back together for now as It was turning out to be quite involved to find out where the movment was coming from around the spindle area. But I'm pretty certain it's to do with were the X and Y axis meet, on the big linear rail. Anyway that battle is for another day, when I'm ready to tackle the question of getting more height to the Z.
As for that looseness of the Z, it is how the router was made and that is the downward movement is GRAVITY.
The image shows the setup. The part A. which is the inside of the spindle plate and screws to the small Z linear rails, literally rests on top of part B. which moves up/down the ball screw.
That's gotta go!!

If you go Mach, stick with Mach3 for the present. I suggest an Ethernet Smooth Stepper and two MB02 BoBs from Homann Designs. Medium PC running XP SP3 or W7 (NOT later). I KNOW that combo works.

I've also been re-thinking about the cost of getting the electronics upgrade. I haven't ruled out the whole out with the old in with the new and going for a Gecko 540/ SmoothStepper Ethernet approach. But I'm also looking at maybe keeping the old driver and looking at the suggestion above by Rcaffin.

[pari]

Well the retrofit is underway.
I sold the old control box this week and ordered the new Gecko540/Smoothstepper from Homann Designs.
In the end I thought it best to have it made for me than trying to figure it out myself, as I'm not that great around electrics.
I've taken the Z axis apart to start thinking about how I'm going to get extra height on that and the gantry. Not sure if i will make a new longer version of the current Z setup or buy something ready made and add the Y mechanism to it with the motor/belt/pinion attached.
If anyone has any feed back or pointer as to raising the gantry it would be greatly appreciated.