Wow, there is a wealth of information on this site and have spent several nights reading/searching for information relating to various things.... always seem to find the answers.

This one is alittle more "difficult" though and I don't want to open a squabble...as I know people always have there preferences....

I am in the market for a used VMC to export to New Zealand, I am new to cnc machines and only had experience with manual mills. Most of what I intend to do is relatively simple..... mainly automotive related....probing existing parts, finding bore centers, re-boring cylinders, refacing etc, as well as any general machining work.
I know the size/type of machine I require (VF-3/4020HT/6030 , side mount, 4th axis, probe), but I don't know machine reliability, tolerance "holding" traits and maintenance factors relating to the various machines.....plus as always, there is a budget to keep in mind.
I also leave many hours away from any cnc service people.... which is probably the greatest factor.... I have already read here quite a number of "horror stories" on a number of machines.

Can I ask peoples opinion on which of the "common", local machines (i.e Fadal, Haas, Milltronics etc) which would be the most reliable and "hard" wearing machine? Which would be the easiest to set-up and use? What to look for in a used machine to avoid a "lemon"? Is a ball bar test adequate to show machine wear.

Any help and comments appreciated.

Chris

I would buy a used Makino before buying new, any of those you mentioned. It sounds like your doing automotive engines and if that's the case your going to need a machine that maintains a good table plane. FYI Fads don't do that.

Thanks for the reply.
I have been "warned off" as supplied rotary tables... and ended up buying a virtually new Nikken on advice from others.

Is that what you are referring to and/or could you elaborate on the table plane issue?

Thanks for the reply.
I have been "warned off" as supplied rotary tables... and ended up buying a virtually new Nikken on advice from others.

Is that what you are referring to and/or could you elaborate on the table plane issue?

Sent you a PM

I think given your location, the ability to service the machine will be worth more than neato features. If the machine is inoperable, it doesn't matter what tricks it will do if repairs are weeks away. The machine best suited to your needs might not be the highest performing machine you can buy, especially if you're not doing high volume production. If you were located in a large metropolitan area in the USA, there are lots of choices. If you're not so close to reliable service and support for certain brands, you might consider sticking with one that is reliable and close.

As stated before, find a local service/sales company in your area. I prefer the Mori's myself, even if you need to buy used. Check this site and use the drop downs to see if they have service in your area, or call the nearest tech center. They don't always list the service offices in every area. Stay with the larger brands if you can, worst thing ever is when you call for a part for a ten year old machine to find out the company has gone under or is no longer supporting "that old" of a product. In my past I would say Mori has been the best at parts for old machines, followed by Okuma and Makino. The Taiwan/chinese stuff has been the worst.

http://www.moriseiki.com/english/index.html

Well, you both have probably "hit the nail on the head" and was aware of the problem before the original post..... there is basically no service available here for ANY machine.
Moriseki's closest service center is in... Australia !! I doubt whether the others are much different.... as New Zealand has only a small population and it wouldn't be worth their while to set something up here.

So I am pretty much on my own and repairs/maintainence will have to be done by me.
Getting parts in is not an issue but perhaps the know-how and any specialist fixtures required to repair the thing... might be.... which is why I asked if any of the "local" machines is known to be more reliable.

Why do I feel the need for a "common" US machine? I think parts and spares will be easier to source and perhaps the "knowledge" side of issue is alittle easier to find.

It is not as dire as might first appear. Many factories provide phone support even if you are not the original owner of the machine. Although they will not hold your hand every day, they will be very helpful troubleshooting and diagnosing machine problems over the phone. This is partly in hopes you buy more of their machines and partly because they can sell you replacement parts. :D

If you cannot get reliable local service regardless of brand, then you are free to choose a machine with the features you think will best suit your application. Any issues will be solved by you and any parts will come by boat so there may not be a preference in one make's reliability over another brand.

Now thats the sort of comments I was after... I am not fazed by the lack of service support here. We tend to be a country of DIY'ers just for that reason.

So I guess my question should have been - are there any known reliability "flaws" that one local brand has ?

I think you can find some neat machines that are less commonly known, but that still have decent features and quality. Since you do not plan on high volume production, I doubt you'll kill spindles. Massive material removal rates are not so important, so high horsepower and rigidity are not so crucial. The world's fastest tool change is not important either. Fun but not gonna make you more money. :)

If you're looking at a used machine, knowing its history is likely to be more relevant than the brand. For instance, a lovingly cared for Haas may be a better deal than a beat-to-snot Mazak. Haas and Fadal also have their "re-manufactured" machines at a discounted price and with a warranty.

Will the machine definitely come by boat? Is there anything already in NZ?

When someome offers the open question What VMC without specifics I would also say Mori Seiki.

As to service and support - if its a Mori and you don't do any catastrophic crashes you will never need them other than to order the FANUC batteries each year. They just keep running.

Cfin,
First off Welcome :cheers:
I have done a lot of research one New Zealand in the last year. In my digging around I have found a few companys that I am sure you are already aware of.
Total CNC (http://www.totalcnc.co.nz/New-Machines/Vertical-Machining-Centers-1119.htm)
is a dealer for Kitamura which has a great reputation. They have a office in Christchurch and Auckland.

Then you have Global (http://www.gmtools.co.nz/) They carry Matsurra and Nakamura which are unbeatable in Any country. They also have the worst web site on the internet with 0.0 clickable links :confused:

CNC Machine Tools (http://www.cncmachinetools.com.au/milling.aspx) carries the Hardinge / Bridgport line and they have really come a long way as very nice VMC's

I could have sworn that Makino had a office in NZ but I can seem to find it. They may service out of Aus.

What I remember is most things tool and cnc were out of Auckland.
The area we are looking at is in the West Coast region. A little scary to be that far away from...anything :)
What area do you call home?
Gary

Hi Gary

Thanks for the links, I was aware of one of them but didn't know there was anything outside of Auckland.
To be honest, I never even considered buying a machine from a NZ dealer.
Why? Past experience has shown me that "availability" is limited or non-existent, there is no service structure (unless you live in Auckland), (parts) mark-ups are often verging on theft from some distributors (I have many examples....but a recent one I was involved with, was near 900% markup over the US RETAIL price of a particular item !!), most deal with non brand-name machines ..... and internal cost structures.
Some things I can see their point of view... there is little sense in having "expensive" stock sitting on the floor/in the store when volumes are low and there is no sense in having five experienced techs... for the same reason, so its a chase-your-tail situation.
As for parts, if people "play the game", I support them.... if not... it is a global marketplace and I feel alot of these guys don't realize that...

However on the other side of the coin, if I needed 10 machines and they had to be running 24/7 .... then thats a totally different situation.... both for them and me, but I am not in that situation.

Now thats the sort of comments I was after... I am not fazed by the lack of service support here. We tend to be a country of DIY'ers just for that reason.

So I guess my question should have been - are there any known reliability "flaws" that one local brand has ?

It is hard to say that any one machine will be higher reliability than others... I am in an office park with a few machine shops. I have Okuma, Leadwell and Bridgeport/Hardinge machines in our shop, and they have all had occasional issues. Having said that, I have fixed every problem myself, none of them were particularly major problems.

The shops around me have various machines. One is big into Mazak, one has a lot of Matsuura and one has Mori Seiki and Excel. None of us have really had any huge problems, just little things that you could fix yourself if you have the time and patience. The Mori shop had a hydraulic pump go - $4k from Mori, but he took it apart and found the OEM manufacturer and got one for $800.

I don't think you will be able to get any meaningful data as far as actual reliability of machines on here - you will get a lot of anecdotes but you would need a massive sample size to get a meaningful data set and you just won't get that here.

But I do think you can help yourself in your decision. Here's my advice... stick with the more popular brands of machine. That means you will have more people owning them who may have similar issues to the issues you will have, and will be able to help you. Also, stay as generic as possible. We all look longingly at machines with huge RPM ratings on the spindle, linear motors, box ways with exotic bearings and all of that. But when any of those things break, you're dealing with the manufacturer and parts are expensive.

So I would say you should avoid Haas, Okuma or Mazak because they all have their own custom controls. You should get something with a Fanuc control or a widely used control like a Mitsubishi. Mitsubishi has been excellent helping me diagnose problems.

As for the brand of machine, get one with "generic" parts. My Leadwell is all made up of generic parts. Mitsubishi motors and drives. NKS (sp?) bearings. I had a coolant pump go - Leadwell was something like $1800 but I looked at the label on the pump and you can get it for $400 direct from the manufacturer... if I had a Haas with a high-PSI pump, I'd be dealing with them directly for repair.

Look at machines like Leadwell, Mori Seiki, Excel and such. I'd also stay away from any machine that came with brand new (at the time the machine was made) whiz-bang features. There is never the user base for that stuff so the first generation of new features will have more trouble.




So, in short... I say get a generic machine from a company who just buys an off-the-shelf control (I recommend Fanuc or Mitsubishi), and with a generic machine that uses off-the-shelf parts. It if breaks, you will be able to get parts from tons of places and it will be easy to work on.

After listening in on a bunch of NZ sites in the last year..I have noticed a familiar vibe. And you have hit it right on the head. The internet will eventually get the local business in line price wise..but it will take a while (chair)
I will build up some links for you of reputable used machine sales sites..(is that possible??) :) I am bone tired tonight :tired:
Gary

Mike, thanks for that and think you are right onto it....
Should something "stop", I need to be able talk to someone has a similar machine/problem and locate the possible problem or area. I guess most problems are either simple things or an outright component failure.

Mori seems to be the most mentioned choice.... "entry" appears more expensive but I guess you get what you pay for..

After listening in on a bunch of NZ sites in the last year..I have noticed a familiar vibe. And you have hit it right on the head. The internet will eventually get the local business in line price wise..but it will take a while (chair)
I will build up some links for you of reputable used machine sales sites..(is that possible??) :) I am bone tired tonight :tired:
Gary

Yes, its a widespread problem here Gary... but the net will beat them. I think we should all be buying shares in international freight companies !!

The links would be appreciated, am mainly looking on the west coast as it alittle cheaper freight wise but out of major centers in the east isn't too bad.

Mike, thanks for that and think you are right onto it....
Should something "stop", I need to be able talk to someone has a similar machine/problem and locate the possible problem or area. I guess most problems are either simple things or an outright component failure.

Mori seems to be the most mentioned choice.... "entry" appears more expensive but I guess you get what you pay for..

I am not sold on the "you get what you pay for" thing... it's like cars. A Toyota Camry will get you back and forth to work. So will a Bentley. Is the Bentley better? Well, it certainly has more stuff and will do the same job as the Camry but will do it smoother, quicker, etc. But is it more reliable? I would say maybe it's less reliable... and when it breaks, it will be more expensive.

I am definitely sold on the idea that something like a Mori will do certain things a lot better than a generic Fanuc machine. But if you don't need it to do those things, then you are just spending more money at purchase time for a name... and when it breaks, if it's the whiz-bang stuff that breaks, you will be dealing with Mori for service.

Having said that, I would love to have a shop full of Moris... if money was no object. But my 15 year old Leadwell has been running probably 6-8 hours a day on average at almost always it's max spindle RPM. It had an encoder on one axis go bad and I replaced the Y axis thrust bearing because it was getting noisy. Now the X is noisy... it's about $600 for the parts and a few hours of labor, no biggie.

My Okuma lathe had a leaky hydraulic actuator - fixed it myself for $150 in parts vs. several thousand for a new actuator or hundreds to rebuild mine.

My previous Leadwell VMC had a bad servo amp... but it was a mitsu control so it was a well known control and someone said they had the same issue, and it was one of three transistors. I searched the part number and found them, ordered the next beefier size up, $60 for three... some soldering and I was back in action.

Bridgeport had a noisy spindle... turns out it was a bearing. Pulled it off, found a company making parts for it, replaced it - was quiet as could be.

Since you'll be doing the work yourself, like me, I'd go for a generic machine that will do what you need it to do, but I wouldn't spend $$ for a "higher end" name in the hopes that it will break less, because when I talk to the shops around me, they've had at least as many issues with their Mazaks and Moris and Makinos and Matsuuras as I've had with my Okumas and Leadwells.

Good luck whatever you do!