Hi,

I am a graphic design professional who is looking to purchase an affordable laser engraver. I work primarily with the adobe product line and I would like to find a machine that can engrave vector art and function with the existing software I am familiar with. I have some basic 3D skills and a copy of sketch-up as well.

I feel like there is a lot to know about laser engraving and I'm hoping you nice folks can point me in the right direction. I have a maximum budget of 8k, but that would be a serious stretch for me. So something less that half of that price would be ideal. I'm open to purchasing used equipment, provided that it is in excellent shape.

I plan on engraving on wood and Epoxy Resin, however I may change my mind about this whole venture if you experts think it could be hazardous to engrave on resin. I have included a link to the MSDS for the product below and would appreciate your feedback.

http://www.eti-usa.com/MSDS/MSDS%20PDF/Envirotex%20Lite/Envirotex%20Lite%20Resin.pdf

More importantly would be a suggestion for an affordable, reliable engraver that will work for my purposes. Or perhaps I am looking at the wrong type of machine, would a cnc router be more appropriate?? I appreciate your advice as I am very new to all of this.

many thanks!!

-cheech

Cheech,

You could buy something like the Epilog Zing or a used US brand machine, but if it were my money I'd go for a new Chinese brand system for ~$4k.

There was a post in another thread yesterday about a 5030 machine that looked nice. It was a reputable seller (in China) on ebay, get the Bing discount (currently 8%) and ebay bucks and you've got a great deal. I would pay the extra for DHL door-to-door shipping, as they'll handle the import. You shouldn't have to pay any additional brokerage fees or import duty.

Regarding the epoxy, the hazard statement doesn't fill me with confidence but for engraving you may be ok. Depending on your application it may be possible to use Acrylic instead, which would produce a better result and no concern with 'chlorine compounds' which are generally bad.

*HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION OR BYPRODUCTS: BURNING PRODUCT WILL EMIT TOXIC FUMES INCLUDING OXIDES OF CARBON AND NITROGEN, AND VARIOUS CHLORINATED COMPOUNDS.*

Once you've done the initial setup and have the machine aligned and running (this takes some technical aptitude, but isn't too challenging) it isn't difficult to operate or use. It's not much different to a pen plotter or printer. You'll need to figure out the right settings for your material and application which may involve some trial and error but so does getting the right colors from a printer.

Your last question about a CNC router being a possible alternative. It is really a different tool, it will engrave wood but not in the same way as a laser. It is also noisy and in some aspects more dangerous and certainly could have a longer learning curve and requires more mechanical setup etc.

I would actually suggest you work with a local laser shop, hang around while they engrave your job and see what is involved and make sure the results are as expected.

Zax.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Zax. I had been looking at the Epilog Zing mainly because it claims to support adobe products and I have been a little reticent about working with a Chinese system. Its a lot of money for me and I don't want to experience any buyers regret. Could you expound a bit more on why you would purchase a Chinese system if it was your money? I'm still very new to all of this and I don't quite fully understand the differences.

I especially appreciate you looking over that Epoxy MSDS, I wasn't sure if those kinds of emissions were standard for acrylic, plastic or other commonly engraved materials. So I will definitely not be using it for that.

I'm still on the fence between a Chinese or the Zing. It seems like the Zing is a fairly new product, do you know of anyone that has purchased one who could fill me in on how it has worked out for them? I'm pretty skeptical of sales men and any testimonials that appear on their site. Also I'd love to hear from any end users (not sellers) that have worked with some of these lower cost Chinese systems, like the one you mentioned before. Specifically, are they USB compatible? Will they work with sketch-up and adobe products. I'm looking for something that will fit in with my existing skill set. I don't have any experience with Corel, would it be possible to design in illustrator and move that over to Corel? Also do the Chinese systems work with vector art?

I will definitely take your advice on seeing one (or more) operate first hand and make sure it is something I want to invest in before I make any purchases. Are there any folks in the Seattle area that might be willing to have me drop in just to observe their engraver in action? I'd be happy to bring some beers or lunch or both. In the mean time, this seems like a very well informed community so I will take advantage of these forums and do my best to learn what I can from others experiences.

again, many thanks,
-cheech

The reason I would go with the Chinese system is easy, value for money.

In operation they are very similar to a US brand machine. The latest LaserCut drivers that work directly from most applications (Corel, Photoshop etc) should suit your needs although I don't know if they work with Illustrator or Sketch-Up. SU isn't really a good tool for this, you would be better served switching to Corel or just continue to use Illustrator.

The only thing your money is buying with the Zing for example over a much more powerful and larger table Chinese system would be US based support. If you choose the right Chinese system the support can be just as good, with Skype and/or MSN techs available during their office hours. The other issue is replacement parts, with the US brand you have next day availability and some assurance they will have spares for several years at least. It is certainly possible to get parts from China in 3 to 4 days and sometimes the cost is not more.

Many people on this forum have a Chinese system (me included), you should also visit http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=8 for a slightly different perspective. The users over at the creek are generally US brand guys so their views are a little different, just remember they paid $16k for something a guy down the road got for $4k out of China.

I do mainly CNC router and vinyl cutting work, the laser was added to my equipment set to provide existing customers with engraved products. The choice for me was to keep sending work out or buy a low cost system (<3k), There were no options at that budget, and I have not regretted the purchase.

Like I said before, the newer systems operate in a similar way to a printer - USB connection and a driver. The Zing will leave you limited but perhaps offer easier setup and some level of support whereas the Chinese system will have higher capability and speed in addition to significant cost savings.

Zax.

Zax,

Do you have a link to the company you purchased your machine from?

Thank You,

Jeff...

Jeff,

I got mine from Jinan Artsign, which was one of the better manufacturers at the time. I would now choose a different vendor, as they do not yet have any new models and others have released improved versions.

Zax.

Zax,

Do you have a link to the company you purchased your machine from?

Thank You,

Jeff...

Zax,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Who would you purchase from now?

Jeff...

Jeff,

That is an open question. It would depend on what size and capability machine I wanted to purchase, but in general I would suggest looking at (in no particular order):

XYZ-Tech http://xyz-tech.en.alibaba.com/product/245711698-50378408/China_laser_engraver_CE_.html

Redsail Tech http://www.hflaser.com/

Coletech http://cncoletech.cn/Laser%20Engraver%20CL%2090120.htm

Rabbit http://www.rabbitlaser.com/

If you are looking for a desktop system, XYZ and Coletech would be high on my list as they have the newer models and best prices right now.

There are other options, and remember most of these companies are located in the same area and use sub assemblies from the same source. The build quality is generally good so the differentiator would be after-sales service, documentation etc.

If you want to save money compared to a US brand but still have some local support, better documentation and eliminate the hassles of import, I would suggest working with one of the stateside importers (just make sure they have the latest models and stock spares or the benefits aren't worth the additional cost). Here are a couple that come to mind:

http://www.the-lasersedge.com/index.html

http://www.scottware.net/

Zax.

Also www.legacylasers.com (http://www.legacylasers.com) is a US importer of Chinese lasers and offers local support. They are located in PA.

Zax, I appreciate your insight into Chinese lasers. They are certainly more cost effective which is a big deal when you don't have much of a budget to begin with. I think I will follow your advice Zax and look into cole and xyz. I'll definitely go with DHL shipping. Although I am finding a hard time locating pricing information on the xyz link.

Jeff you asked some good questions, probably where I was going next with this thread.

One last important topic. Laser wattage. I'd imagine the power you need varies based on what kind of tasks you will be asking the laser to perform. For what I am looking at doing; cutting wood no more than 1/4" thick and engraving on acrylic. What kind of wattage do you think I would need to get the job done?

Tube power (40,60,80W etc) is one factor, cutting speed and optics (focus) are others that are just as important.

A 40W laser with quality optics would be capable of cutting 1/4" hardwood in single pass at a reasonable rate, whereas an 80W with a larger spot size may result in more burning and a less desirable cut at the same speed.

There are trade offs, for example a smaller spot size and therefore more power density will have a shallow depth of field making focus more critical and cutting depth limited. So you have more power to cut at the focal point but it quickly loses power due to the beam incident angle. You probably want to get 50-65mm focal length optics for your application.

Engraving acrylic, or even cutting it is a relatively simple task. The material vaporizes rather than melts and is ideal for laser cutting.

I would suggest a 60W tube, as a good balance between cost and performance.

As with most of the Chiinese companies, their websites are not what you are used to with US brands. They don't spend a lot on advertising or marketing which is one reason the prices are lower. If you send them e-mails they usually have technical datasheets or other information to share and will provide quotes including shipment to your location. It is also the best way to see how responsive they are and ask questions. As I said before, getting a quote from the US re-sellers is a good idea for comparison.

Zax.

Zax,

Thank you for the additional information.

Lots of variables to consider, your input helps a lot.

Jeff...

I couldn't agree more Jeff.

Zax, thanks again for sharing your wisdom, know-how, and experiences. I'll be sure to do my homework now that I have a better idea of what to look for in a laser. I'm going to try getting in direct contact with some vendors on both sides of the pond and see what they have to offer.

There is one thing concerning the focal length of the optics that I want to be crystal clear on. When looking for a more powerful laser, are smaller size focal lengths better? or are larger lengths more powerful? you suggested a range of 50-65mm and I'm wondering which end of the scale I should be more impressed with.

thanks,
cheech

The ZnSe lenses required for CO2 laser wavelength (10.6um) are more expensive than regular glass lenses. This means it is an area to save money which results in reduced performance.

In general these lenses are Plano-Convex or Meniscus design, the latter provides slightly better performance and is becoming more common. It is also slightly more expensive due to double sided machining.

The longer the focal length, the more depth of field. This usually means you have a larger spot size (lower power density) but maintain it for more depth. This would be suited to cutting thicker materials, and not producing fine engraving work. On the flip side, a short focal length would give a small spot size and more power density, ideal for fine engraving but would quickly expand past the focus point and then lose power and produce a less straight cut. It is more suited to engraving and thin cutting. I suggested a 50-65mm focal length based on your inputs for application. In practice you'll probably find the manufactuer offers a 55mm or similar lens.

I hope this answers your question and isn't too much information.

I've also included a sketch (it was a very quick one) that shows the lens, laser beam and their interaction. The curve of the lens is what sets the focal length so the less curve the further away the focus point but the longer the depth of field (area where the laser is still focused) and larger the spot size.

Zax.

I think I'm following you Zax. Lets see if I have it right, a 45mm lens would be geared towards engraving work (smaller spot size), while a 65mm lens would be better for cutting (larger spot size). Thanks for the drawing by the way, helps to visualize it.

You are close. It's not really the spot size but the depth of field (distance at which the beam stays 'in focus'), however the spot size would be smaller providing a higher power density.

A long focal length in this application would be more like >80mm and a short focal length <50mm with 'normal' being between the two. If you want a general purpose machine get something around 55mm.

Zax.

Great, I'll shoot for around 55mm then. Thanks again Zax. I might be waiting a couple months before making my purchase, but I will be sure to post when I do.

Have you ever considered making a Faq/guide for newbies Zax?

Great, I'll shoot for around 55mm then. Thanks again Zax. I might be waiting a couple months before making my purchase, but I will be sure to post when I do.

Have you ever considered making a Faq/guide for newbies Zax?

I agree with this sugestion. In portuguese will be better for me. :D

I might struggle a bit with Portuguese but good suggestion :)

Zax.