This program is worse than freeware in MANY respects! Gee, I wish I didn't spend $900 on this thing.

1. For some reason, you cannot copy and paste toolpaths using Ctrl + C and Ctrl + V. Yes, apparently MecSoft hasn't really caught up to Windows 3.1 yet.

2. You cannot undo changes made to your toolpaths. Even though the keyboard shortcuts for copy and paste are not enabled, accidentally hitting the delete key will permanently erase your work.

3. Loading tools is cumbersome. Tool Libraries can be saved into two different types of files for some reason. The standard type does not save the tools' speeds and feeds (of course, RhinoCAM doesn't warn you about this). If you want to really save your library you need to use the other file format.

4. Toolpath creation methods do not work. Check out this thread on the RhinoCAM forum where I pointed this out to them...
http://www.mecsoft.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=6276

5a. The software is buggy. I've had Rhino crash on me about 6 times while working with RhinoCAM. I've never had it crash before.
Recently a new bug has shown up where it DOES NOT SAVE YOUR WORK about 50% of the time.
5b. They only seem to update RhinoCAM when a new version of Rhino is released.

6. Bug reports are met with hostility and insults. Check the thread linked above for which I was banned from the MecSoft "Support" Forum.
Unfortunately you cannot see pictures posted to the MecSoft forum unless you log in. If anyone is interested, I can re-post the pictures here.

7. Tool selection is artificially limited. For instance Drilling operations only allow you to select drills and center drills from your tool library. At first this may make sense. But if you're like me and use a "vee mill" to do your spot drilling you're out of luck.

8. The user interface is unrefined.

For instance, the MOp (machine operations) creation interface is "always on top" (meaning the window is displayed above all other windows, regardless if Rhino is the active program or not. Even minimizing the main Rhino window will not get rid of the MOp creation dialog, neither do clicking the "Show Desktop" button in Windows 7 nor does hitting "WinKey + D" on the keyboard.

Another curious UI decision is that MecSoft did not include a way to access the speeds and feeds calculator from the tool creation dialog. If you're in the middle of creating a new tool and you'd like to use the calculator to enter all the different speeds automatically you have to...

Save the tool (even though at the moment it's incomplete)
Create a new MOp (yes, the only way to get to the calculator is through the MOp dialog)
Go into the speeds and feeds tab
Click the "Load From Table" button
Struggle with the poorly made calculator to get the parameters you want
THEN
Open your newly created tool again
Manually copy all the values from the MOp to the tool
Save the tool again
See attached picture


9. The simulation mode is very inaccurate, too fast, and too slow - all at the same time.
Inaccurate - The virtual part is very rough. Sometimes areas that should be round are completely square. Arcs and diagonals are jagged. The display is enough to determine if a profile cut is on the correct side of the line, but not a whole lot more.
Too Fast - Sometimes the simulation will complete instantly leaving you wondering just how the part will be cut. If you're watching the simulation to find out in what order features are milled you may be out of luck.
Too Slow - When the part "stock" is displayed it slows my machine to a crawl. My computer isn't the fastest in the world but it's no slouch (Intel Core2Quad @ 2.4GHz (Q6600), 4 GB of DDR3 RAM, nVidia GTX280 video card (1 GB of video memory), OCZ Vertex SSD, running Windows 7 RC1 x64, 2560x1600 display). I get approximately six frames per second when the stock is displayed.

10. The program has very few options. The few options it does have will sometimes they'll inexplicably revert to their default settings - without warning. Sometimes my post processor setting will jump to the top of the list, for seemingly no reason. I've also had the "Output arc/spiral/helix as linear segments" options seemingly randomly reselect themselves.

11. The program checks for updates EVERY TIME IT'S OPENED. This process needs administrator privileges for some reason which means if you're using Vista or Windows 7 you need allow/disallow a UAC window every time the program starts (depending on your UAC settings of course) just to reconfirm MecSoft has not released any updates ([i]see 5b above[/b]).

12. Features that were present in RhinoCAM version 1.0 Basic have been removed from RhinoCAM version 2.0 Standard. Want to edit your toolpaths like you did with the old version? That'll be another $3199 to upgrade to PRO.

Software is a love / hate relationship. Rhino is pretty powerful, but I have also heard from others about the frustration. I won't contaminate your thread with my own less than ideal experiences with design software, as this is not a strong area for me.

I honestly would ask for my money back. I assume you paid with a credit card, so maybe canceling the payment is an option? If you puchased it through a dealer, perhaps they will help you.

As a last resort, but sometimes necessary, call their customers service line and tell them that you are not happy with the product. You wish to return it for a full refund, and be nice but firm about it. If they give you a hard time, tell them they have two choicess
- Refund your money or
- That you will be filing a complaint with the Better Busieness Bureau and will copy your congressman on the complaint, along with the fact that you plan to post your experiences on the internet.

Obviously, your congressman doesn't give a squat about your problems (none do), but it makes people nervous, and no one wants bad publicity over a $ 1,000 sale.

As a representative from MecSoft, I can address the issues and what may be the purposeful deceipt from Hirudin. However, please note we will not have an all out debate on a public forum - as I've been a member of forums since the BBS days, and this behavior is unprofessional and rarely resolves anything.

What I can say is that Mr. Hirudin did show up on the MecSoft forum with some questions on some problems he was faced with. Unfortunately, our request, as well as the request from other users attempting to help this individual - for more specific information, went unanswered. It was apparent that there was not going to be any way for this user to provide purposeful information - as opposed to simply trolling. Many of those accusations are not based on reality (which I find is the nicer way of saying they are completely untrue) :-)

For those who have experienced challenges with any software they use, and attempt to resolve it in good faith - whether with the manufacturer or trying to get help from friends/colleagues/etc., they understand that in order to be successful there needs to be complete disclosure while working with whomever you have asked for help.

After numerous antagonistic posts, and after continually denying to provide any specific information to OTHER USERS ATTEMPTING TO ASSIST HIM/HER, we felt that the post was not worth leaving on the forum. Of course, the usual path for these types of "differences" results in the user calling us to ask why they are unable to log on to their account. Either trolls, or the competition, who obviously have alot of time on their hands to go generate this type of misinformation, never call in. To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe this person has called in to our support line since being banned.

So apologize to all users who have now wasted their valuable time reading this "dirty laundry", and then having to read my response. If you are a new user interested in a CAM package that works with Rhino, then ask yourself:

1) How could we have thousands of users worldwide?
2) and how could we develop such a fantastic relationship with Bob (McNeel) and virtually everyone at his company (many of whom we go beyond business, and actually call them our friends)?

If our software and support were so bad, you wouldn't be able to actually call our customers who we post in our testimonials and case studies, and find out differently. We invite you to do so.

If you have any additional questions, I invite you to contact me directly. We advertise here with our friends at CNC Zone, and I am attempting to frequent these forums more, to make access easier for you guys/gals.

Hi Craig,

I have no idea if the problem is the end user or the software, but I did look at his thread in your forum prior to it being deleted. Obviously, he appears to be frustrated.

In the end, it raises a basic question for me - what is your policy regarding refunds? If I were to buy the software, and was not happy with it - will you provide a full refund, and for how long is this refund option available to me?

I just finished watching a youtube video called "United Breaks Guitars", which of course was not entirely their fault, but nonetheless, I am sure they wish they had dealt with the situation earlier and faster with a refund.

Just food for thought from a fellow Business Development Professional.

Take care,

HarryN

Harry, there are very few software companies that I'm aware of that offer refunds. That's what demo's are for. When buying software, it's extremely important that you do the research up front so that you know what you're getting before you pay for it. Most of the more expensive packages will work with you prior to purchase so you can be sure of what you're getting.

Several of Hirudin's complaints might have be solved if they coded the features he is asking for.

There is a touch of frustration in his post however it seems very well documented and thought out.

Personally I don't believe Hirudin is making posts to undermine Mecsoft, he needs the software to do certain tasks.

You know this would not be a debate or much of a issue if Hirudin purchased a expensive power tool at Sears and it did not do what he wanted it to do.

If you cant make the customer happy a expeditious refund is the best solution and great P.R.

Even if the product is perfect why would the manufacture want a unhappy customer.

A public debate or defense makes no sense.

Jeff...

HarryN,

Thank you for the note. Regarding refunds, we are very similar to many other small software developers. We will provide refunds based on a few conditions:

1) the software doesn't do what is advertised. The good thing here, is that our V.P. of Sales knows the software very well, and as she is not your stereotypical "salesperson", I know she doesn't overstate the software. Thus, the issue becomes what the buyer "perceives" - and as you know, from our end we attempt to eliminate that as much as we can from our end.
2) if the user attempts to work with our technical support to resolve the issue, are friendly and respectful, and can determine in 30 days it just isn't going to work, then we also offer refunds.

Unfortunately, like so many small software developers, you get bit by those who expect the world (despite being told the contrary throughout the sales cycle), and then those who simply won't work with a technical support person no matter what...this is not exclusive to this industry, as I've worked for large companies like Intergraph and Autodesk, as well as small manufacturers - and yet they all see the same range of customers.

Then, unfortunately, we have the not-so-upfront-about-their needs types. I would say, regardless of industry, I see at least a dozen of these people per year (and I am only one guy on a team of people). They are the hobbyists, enthusiasts, or job shops, etc. who believe it is fair to buy software for a small project they have been working on. Within 30 days they complete the project, then attempt to return software.

When I was doing sales, we would even have some people blatantly tell us they just had one job to run - so it was easy to set their expectations up front (and let them know they just can't return the software without any substantive reason for doing so).

This is the fine line companies end up walking. When consulting with companies, I often attempt to persuade them of the easy to return refund type policy. It is so easy for people to go on and shout from the nearest forum these days online, why even hassle with it? However, the reality is with many of these people there is considerable time and effort put in prior to the sale, where margin has been reduced to essentially nothing.

Over the years, I think these types of policies work themselves out. I think most who have worked with our company have found the staff to be friendly, courteous, and professional. The attitude is definitely representative of the owners attitudes, as they are very nice people. I'm originally from the Chicago area, moved to So.Cal 9 years ago, and sometimes the "laid back" attitude isn't quite as decisive as even I'd like it to be :-) LOL

We simply ask that our partners/customers have the same courteous and respectful attitude. This type of situation doesn't occur all that often, so it is just a shame that out of the vast amount of licenses sold every year, we'll have to defend one, perhaps two, of these types of online situations.

For the record, I haven't called MecSoft. When my files stopped saving properly with RhinoCAM I resolved to find myself a new CAM program. Also, since I'm running Windows 7 I didn't think it was worthwhile to call tech support only for them to refer me to their minimum system requirements. I do have a lot of time on my hands, but not THAT much.

As I said in the thread on the MecSoft forum: my problem with RhinoCAM isn't "I can't make it work" my problem is that "it's more difficult than it should be".

You're right Craig Preston, other users offered "solutions" which I ALREADY FURNISHED AND REJECTED in a post more than a month earlier and asked me to supply answers to questions that were unrelated to the problem. So "G.M." doesn't know what I'm milling... but he thinks I'm being BOTH too aggressive AND too conservative. Gee G.M., I'm not sure how YOU attaining that information would magically reduce the number of random DIAGONAL lines in my SQUARE pocket. My Taig cannot hold a 1/2" end mill, and again I fail to see how HIS machining conventions will make RhinoCAM work any differently.

For the record: I've been trying the competition (actually, more expensive programs) and I gotta say I'm losing faith in finding something that's even remotely in my price range that doesn't have problems equal to (or worse) than RhinoCAM. Who knows, maybe I'll end up upgrading to RhinoCAM Pro. :)

For the record, I haven't called MecSoft. When my files stopped saving properly with RhinoCAM I resolved to find myself a new CAM program. Also, since I'm running Windows 7 I didn't think it was worthwhile to call tech support only for them to refer me to their minimum system requirements. I do have a lot of time on my hands, but not THAT much.

- If I understand your implication, without calling us, you are implying that our technical support will start by asking you remedial questions about your system?

If yes, I would suggest that dare to live on the edge, be all that you can be, blaze your own trail, and give Uday a call in tech support. You may be pleasantly surprised...

If not, please clarify.

Without diving into all points (again, we'd be happy to go through it with you in person - on the phone), I can assure you that some of the points you posted were so far off base, that some were either completely incorrect or can be corrected quite easily (a simple check box alteration, etc.) Your refusal to personally speak with us - yet make assumptions about a software you apparently are not familiar with (despite you having a previous version) just sounds suspicious.

Even better, email me your contact information, and I will have technical support call you - that way you don't even have to pay for the phone call. The only risk you'd take is learning that RhinoCAM has been around for many years and has thousands of satisfied customers around the world for a reason.

Come on...try it...give us a call...I double dog dare you! :-)

Wow, you're offer is so genuine and heartfelt, how can I refuse?

I just may be forced to take my "hostility and insults" remarks back!

Wow, you're offer is so genuine and heartfelt, how can I refuse?

I just may be forced to take my "hostility and insults" remarks back!

Well, we'd appreciate it if you did take back those comments. After all, we want to keep our perfect record (in 12 years and thousands of customers, not once has our support, or our staff been called hostile).

Even when customers are out on their own (running Windows 7 - which isn't even support by Rhino yet, nonetheless RhinoCAM), and we are willing to try and help, if they don't call us, it makes it awfully difficult to get them up and running - even if the fault is caused by something other than our software.

FWIW, I do know of someone I believe who has gotten RC to work on Windows 7...although you are correct in assuming it is not yet supported (and as I mentioned, I don't believe Rhino is supported as of yet either).

Hirudin, was this ever resolved? I'm also looking for a Cam program for Rhino 4.0 and was curious to know if this now works for you since you have a Taig like I do.

Thanks,
Dave

Hirudin, was this ever resolved? I'm also looking for a Cam program for Rhino 4.0 and was curious to know if this now works for you since you have a Taig like I do.

Thanks,
Dave

I'm not sure if the user ever contacted MecSoft afterwards. I stopped working for them in the middle of September. I'd suggest trying to send the user a direct message to see if he resolved it.

For the record, I haven't called MecSoft. When my files stopped saving properly with RhinoCAM I resolved to find myself a new CAM program. Also, since I'm running Windows 7 I didn't think it was worthwhile to call tech support only for them to refer me to their minimum system requirements. I do have a lot of time on my hands, but not THAT much.

As I said in the thread on the MecSoft forum: my problem with RhinoCAM isn't "I can't make it work" my problem is that "it's more difficult than it should be".

You're right Craig Preston, other users offered "solutions" which I ALREADY FURNISHED AND REJECTED in a post more than a month earlier and asked me to supply answers to questions that were unrelated to the problem. So "G.M." doesn't know what I'm milling... but he thinks I'm being BOTH too aggressive AND too conservative. Gee G.M., I'm not sure how YOU attaining that information would magically reduce the number of random DIAGONAL lines in my SQUARE pocket. My Taig cannot hold a 1/2" end mill, and again I fail to see how HIS machining conventions will make RhinoCAM work any differently.

For the record: I've been trying the competition (actually, more expensive programs) and I gotta say I'm losing faith in finding something that's even remotely in my price range that doesn't have problems equal to (or worse) than RhinoCAM. Who knows, maybe I'll end up upgrading to RhinoCAM Pro. :)

well, either that or "code your own (tm)" ;)

While I am very new to cnc machining, I have a couple of thoughts. First, in my search for a cnc machine, every major manufacturer that I talked with recommended Rhino and Rhinocam for my business needs. As a result I joined the forum as part of my own due diligence in making a purchasing decision. After reading the back and forth discussion, I must say that I applaud MecSoft's final response. Fustrated or not, failing to work with Mecsoft to alleviate problems is at a minimum, very suspicious. Looks to me like a back door attempt to discredit Mecsoft without credibility.

To anyone considering RhinoCam:

I have been using Rhinocam for nearly 5 years. I have had limited exposure to other cam software, and I can say without a doubt that I will be using Rhinocam for years to come. Many of the problems listed in the origional post have never happened to me. I use this software for simple 2.5D operations, as well as complex 3d and 4th axis projects, with nothing but good results. I would challenge anyone having this many problems to take a minute, and learn the software. I have placed impossible parameters into the Parameters page, and guess what? It could not compute. Junk in, Junk out.

I guess I slightly offended that someone can make such outrageous claims about a product that truly delivers. I have called tech support before with issues, that were solved by learning more about the software. From a FRIENDLY STAFF.

If I disagree with the way an interface is set up, and the company outright refuses to spend tens of thousands of dollars to "fix" the software on my whim, do I have the right to a refund?

Whatever.

Without going into great detail I can tell you Mecsoft is very thorough, polite, prompt and professional with their support.

Joe Ddog

A view from the outside, sort of;

I kind of went through the same thing with Alibre and their CAM product which is also Mechsoft based. What I observed was a) there were not any updates or bug fixes to obvious problems, instead your maintenance fee was in order to get in touch with someone who knew how to work around bugs and/or poor design. Maybe that's worth a lot of money, but it was not to me. b) support was typical software support where you received canned answers with little or no thought put into what the problem really was. Without yelling and screaming, no one got involved to actually understand the problem so you could get to a.

CAD and CAM software is at a transition now. It is the same transition that several software products before have gone through. A simple example is Music recording. 15 years ago the software costs thousands of dollars and was for high end (high paying) customers only. Now everyone has recording studios at home and you can get software for under $300 that will record as good as any pro stuff.

CAD/CAM software itself used to be complicated and very few programmers understood the math and science to make it work. Now that they teach game programming in high school, 3D concepts are elementary. Animation rendering programs for TV / movies used to be $10,000 and up. Now open source, Blender, can compete with a lot of them, and is totally free.

In 5 years or less and due to the adoption of home based CNC, SolidWorks and Visual Mill in their present form will at best be $99 programs. So vendors are stuck - they are not going to spend money to redesign improvements in poor UI choices or even spend much for bug fixing for a product that has a very limited lifetime. Instead they are working on new high end products, and/or new low end consumer products. The current product line is dead, I promise. Some will hang on as long as they can and survive off their reputation, but they WILL see the light and react accordingly (protools) or die.

In the meantime, we need to decide what we are willing to spend, $150 for an evolving consumer level program that gets the job done with a little extra effort, $900 for a legacy 'pro' program that does the same thing but is dead, or $10,000 for a truly 'pro' product that really is polished and supported. Answer with your wallet.

[When a company (like Alibre) decides to create an OEM (proprietary) version of someone else's (like Mecsoft's) program, it won't necessarily be the same thing as the original -features may be altered or stripped out entirely. Often, the OEM program will not come with the same level of support that the original one had. If the OEM company takes on the support themselves, as is often the case, they are not likely to have the same level of experience with it that the original company had. Also, the OEM program might be restricted to a certain version of the original program - when the original is updated, users of the OEM program may not have access to the updates. All this is buried in the contract between the original program's manufacturer and the company licensing it. I'm not privy to those arrangements, but it's quite common in the industry.]

A view from the outside, sort of;

I kind of went through the same thing with Alibre and their CAM product which is also Mechsoft based. What I observed was a) there were not any updates or bug fixes to obvious problems, instead your maintenance fee was in order to get in touch with someone who knew how to work around bugs and/or poor design. Maybe that's worth a lot of money, but it was not to me. b) support was typical software support where you received canned answers with little or no thought put into what the problem really was. Without yelling and screaming, no one got involved to actually understand the problem so you could get to a.

CAD and CAM software is at a transition now. It is the same transition that several software products before have gone through. A simple example is Music recording. 15 years ago the software costs thousands of dollars and was for high end (high paying) customers only. Now everyone has recording studios at home and you can get software for under $300 that will record as good as any pro stuff.

CAD/CAM software itself used to be complicated and very few programmers understood the math and science to make it work. Now that they teach game programming in high school, 3D concepts are elementary. Animation rendering programs for TV / movies used to be $10,000 and up. Now open source, Blender, can compete with a lot of them, and is totally free.

In 5 years or less and due to the adoption of home based CNC, SolidWorks and Visual Mill in their present form will at best be $99 programs. So vendors are stuck - they are not going to spend money to redesign improvements in poor UI choices or even spend much for bug fixing for a product that has a very limited lifetime. Instead they are working on new high end products, and/or new low end consumer products. The current product line is dead, I promise. Some will hang on as long as they can and survive off their reputation, but they WILL see the light and react accordingly (protools) or die.

[While there probably will be more options on the low end, it seems unlikely that a company going for the mass market will be too interested in home CNC. It's a growing hobby, certainly, but it's not exactly going to compete with video-gaming. You can opt to wait for the price on your favorite programs to drop to $99 or whatever, but you might have a long and unproductive wait to endure. And if that does happen, it doesn't seem likely that those programs would continue to offer the free and knowledgeable tech support that Mecsoft currently provides. You'd likely be offered support on a "pay-by-the-minute" plan, like Microsoft provides, with techs who talk verrrry sloooowly.....]

In the meantime, we need to decide what we are willing to spend, $150 for an evolving consumer level program that gets the job done with a little extra effort, $900 for a legacy 'pro' program that does the same thing but is dead, or $10,000 for a truly 'pro' product that really is polished and supported. Answer with your wallet.

[If a $150 program really does get the job done for you, the "extra effort" might be worth putting in, at least if your time isn't very valuable. Most of these programs, though, have major limitations on what they can do. And if the "legacy pro" program you're talking about VisualMill, it's far from "dead" - version 6 was introduced last year, and it's continually being improved upon, while RhinoCAM 2 was introduced this year. Some shops need to use the $10,000 programs, because that's what their people were trained on, they are used to them, and have a lot invested in them already. If you're starting from scratch, though, it makes sense to evaluate the features offered in a range of products, and pick the one which offers what you need for what you can afford. If you stack up all the programs available and compare them on this basis, I think you'll see Mecsoft's products rising to the top of the heap...]

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

Well I'm not guessing here, I am talking from direct relevant experience. The licensing arrangements read something like this (from a current project);
$50,000 binaries, no fixes, no support. $150,000 with source, you fix it yourself. Most chosen option: $50,000 plus pay as you go for fixes, minimum $10,000 per change.

It's no wonder Alibre/Rhino don't offer bug fixes, they can't.

And 'this industry' is no different than any of the other 100s of industries that have a software component. It does not take a crystal ball to see exactly what will happen, as it already has 100s of times before.

IBM once had millions of customers worldwide too; where are they now?

I think you should be thankful that you have a customer that gives you feedback - however he gives it.